To Mike Mearls: Melee training and the Battlemind

[Garthanos]

NO LIGHT FOR YOU! #cantripnazi

Put in that light, I'm fairly certain Avengers will be getting some help in the way of a feat or some more MBA at-wills which are able to be chosen by a broader-range of Avengers. I wouldn't be surprised to see both.

Can I buy them cantrips for a feat Id be good to them I would hug them squeeze them and call them george.

 

[Garthanos]

This single feat can swing your attack and damage by 6 points (-1 with Str 8, +5 with another ability score at 20) at first level. Weapon Focus, Weapon Expertise, and Weapon Proficiency can't even do that at level 25.

Boosting something you will never ever use to something you might use and still requires many feats to make practical (because your class lacks most of the parameters to really use it already) omg how broken.

The most likely context for MT being actually used by a wizard is if the party has a Warlord who specializes ie a choice for the sake of team play. I am pretty sure most of the rest of the time their are better feat choices even un nerfed just as the charging wizard is pretty darned sub opp and feat heavy to be anything but well an i want to play Gandalf roleplaying thing.

 

[scylis]

There's an upper Heroic tier pair of gloves (iirc) that gets you at-will Mage Hand and Prestidigitation, so I don't see why there couldn't be items that cover the others.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm personally in the camp that favors a general weakening of melee training but the creation of Intelligent Blademaster-esque feats for the classes that need them.

That said, for those who say "Its only 2-3 points of damage".

Remember, the difference between a rogue's and ranger's bonus damage is only 3.5 damage. In 3e, weapon spec only gave a +2 to damage and was practically considered a fighter's class ability. People care about damage, so this argument is a valid point and shouldn't be dismissed off hand.

 

[The Little Raven]

Boosting something you will never ever use to something you might use and still requires many feats to make practical (because your class lacks most of the parameters to really use it already) omg how broken.

And it is still boosted. After the change, the effective swing is +6 hit/+3 damage. So now it equals two epic level feats and another feat combined, instead of exceeding them. It is still perfectly practical.

 

[scylis]

I'm personally in the camp that favors a general weakening of melee training but the creation of Intelligent Blademaster-esque feats for the classes that need them.

That said, for those who say "Its only 2-3 points of damage".

Remember, the difference between a rogue's and ranger's bonus damage is only 3.5 damage. In 3e, weapon spec only gave a +2 to damage and was practically considered a fighter's class ability. People care about damage, so this argument is a valid point and shouldn't be dismissed off hand.

In 3rd ed, multiattacking was the rule of the day, so it wasn't just a +2, it was a +2 x the number of hits made in a round.

How many MBAs are people making in a round in 4E that aren't defenders begging mobs to do provoke them?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Most MBA are one of three things:

Charging: there are plenty of ways to boost damage on a charge, so missing out on a little isn't a big deal.

MBA granted by a leader: If a leader is blowing his standard action to give you an MBA, chances are there are some situational considerations. Like you're a rogue with CA, or you're under a buff the leader just gave you or someting like that. Again, slightly lower base damage may not be that important.

OAs and Mark punishment: Here, the point of the MBA is to scare the monster enough that it hesitates to endure it. It needs to hurt. You want all the damage you can get.


So, OK, yes, /some/ defenders - those who don't have strong enough non-MBA mark punishment - may need a strong MBA. And, some of them may not be STR primary. We're talking /maybe/ the battlemind (though they have non-MBA mark punishment) and a swordmage build or two. The swordmage is covered. The Chaladin's mark punishment is nothing to sneeze at, and the Warden's isn't MBA dependent. So, yeah, OK, it might suck to be a battlemind for a minute or two between the reading the errata that nerfs Melee Training, and the one that gives it some other alternative - because they'll both likely be in the October update.

 

[Garthanos]

MBA granted by a leader: If a leader is blowing his standard action to give you an MBA, chances are there are some situational considerations. Like you're a rogue with CA, or you're under a buff the leader just gave you or someting like that. Again, slightly lower base damage may not be that important.

My experience in spite of any fondness the char op boards have for it.. most folk who arent hanging out there already need a pretty convincing reason to get it... and that Warlord who specializes in granting attacks is very dependent on his allies having effective attacks. Not just a little.

@Raven
I think it bears repeating .. I will take it from the backwards perspective. How much of a penalty if you took a normal Wizard ... the kind who never uses mba and gave it a -10 on to hit and a -20 on damage...the answer is ZERO, it isnt a penalty. That is exactly why Raven your numbers are off from a real users perspective. Part of your boost is just the part that "enables" it to become a consideration at all.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Really, the Warlord deserves good MBA friends.

This is why I believe, weapon using classes should have an equivalent ability. Melee training as a cconcept however doesn´t do it.

It is either required for MBA classes that don´t use strength, or not.
A Wizard training melee with his int modifier is still good enough with the new melee training.
If he really like his MBA, he can multiclass into swordmage and take intelligent blademaster. Which actually fits the design. So no real harm done. Actually, I believe it is good to encourage multiclassing to get a decent MBA.

What about a fighter multiclass feat, requirement 13 Strength, benefit: old melee training.

This way:
a) you have to invest a bit of strength
b) you are actually trained as fighter
c) you give up the opportunity cost of multiclassing into a different class
d) it opens up the possibility to invest more into melee
e) a slayer can´t take it

 

[Garthanos]

If he really like his MBA, he can multiclass into swordmage and take intelligent blademaster. Which actually fits the design. So no real harm done.

Suppose I want it to be my wizards staff guided by his arcane mind wrapped with tendrils of energy.... not a sword, that may have been gandalfs schtick (I seen a build of him going that route)... but a war wizard isn't necessarily a Corellion disciple... shrug.

I mentioned it elsewhere... but
Has anyone seen the Latest Sherlock Holmes Flick..that was very much melee training in action. It needs watched and more than a little absorbed by those bearing nerf bats.