The 1e Tournement

[Bullgrit]

Weapon speed in 1e is one of those things that doesn't come in every situation, only in corner cases.

First, don't those "corner cases" come up an average of at least 1 in 6 rounds, (tied initiative on d6, rolled every round)? Plus, why include a specific rule to make things more complicated in corner cases -- as many AD&D1 games have proven, weapon speed rules are completely unnecessary at all.

Second, weapon vs. AC rule was left out of the game, too. You seemed to have missed that half of the sentence.

Bullgrit

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

First, don't those "corner cases" come up an average of at least 1 in 6 rounds, (tied initiative on d6, rolled every round)?

Sure, weapon speeds cases can come up. The exact frequency depends on more than just tied initiative, though.

Plus, why include a specific rule to make things more complicated in corner cases -- as many AD&D1 games have proven, weapon speed rules are completely unnecessary at all.

I agree they're unnecessary. That doesn't mean the rule isn't desirable in some circumstances.

Second, weapon vs. AC rule was left out of the game, too. You seemed to have missed that half of the sentence.

Nah, I didn't. It's just that I consider application of those rules to be the purview of the DM (including simply not applying them). The Players Handbook summarizes the general procedures that govern play, leaving the details to the DM. The rules in the DMG provide the DM with a lot of material of adjudicating combat and other situations, but (for better or worse, and intentionally or not) it doesn't do so in an exacting, rules-parsing manner. Using the rules in the DMG in that manner is just setting yourself up for frustration, IMO. It's not the way AD&D excels.

Here's what it boils down to. If somebody asked me if I wanted to play in a 1e AD&D game, I'd say "sure." Whether or not they're applying weapon speeds or weapon vs. AC doesn't matter, to me. I'd consider it AD&D, either way. And I wouldn't bitch if they didn't use weapon vs. AC the entire session, but then used it during a particularly single combat. Again, I consider it up to the DM to apply those rules in situations where he thinks them relevant.

If I were DMing an AD&D con game and a potential player felt compelled to try and pin down those kind of rules details (i.e. the summaries in the Players Handbook weren't good enough for him), I'd suggest not playing in the AD&D game at all, and using the convention slot to play something else that uses a more exacting and rules-parsing approach (e.g. 3e D&D, Magic: The Gathering, a tactical miniature combat game, a hex-and-counter wargame, et cetera). I suspect we'd both be happier.

 

[rogueattorney]

First, don't those "corner cases" come up an average of at least 1 in 6 rounds, (tied initiative on d6, rolled every round)?

No, 1 in every 6 rounds where the opponent is using a melee weapon. So, it completely depends on who the adversaries are. In a Keep on the Borderlands type adventure, it might be something close to once ever six rounds. In something where there are few or no humanoid adversaries (S3 or S4) or something that's a more exploration/mystery adventure (S1, B1, or the "haunted" house section of U1), it may not come up at all in a session.

Plus, why include a specific rule to make things more complicated in corner cases...

The answer for every case of this in 1e is... "Because someone might think it's cool, and if someone doesn't think it's cool they can easily ignore it." Whether you like it or not, that's the design philosophy behind 1e in a nutshell.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I guess Bullgrit missed the part where the 1e PHB makes explicit that the DM may do things differently if he or she so desires, with any part of the game?

 

[thedungeondelver]

Hey maybe in this thread we could have less slagging of AD&D by Bullgrit and more talk about the tourney.

 

[Crothian]

If a tournament game didn't use all the rules as written in the AD&D1 books -- books written specifically to regulate/conform tournament games -- did Players ever complain? And what happened if someone did complain?

This was a worry. I opened with telling people we are not using all the rules and that as a tournament game where speed through the module is an issue I was going to keep things moving as much as possible.

If someone complained I would listen to their complaint and deal with it. That could be realizing I am wrong and need to fix it to concluding that the player won't have fun at the table and either finding another table for him under a different DM since we had three tables going at once or just tell him he should turn in his ticket and seek a refund.

 

[Crothian]

Hey maybe in this thread we could have less slagging of AD&D by Bullgrit and more talk about the tourney.

If you have questions or suggestions by all mean ask or comment away. This was my first 1e Tournament and even though I think it went smashingly good I know there is always room to improve.

edit: I don't see it as slogging. Asking questions on how the rules played and what we used in the tournament seems legitimate to me.

 

[Bullgrit]

the player won't have fun at the table and either finding another table for him under a different DM since we had three tables going at once

And this raises another point: Did/do different DMs in the same tournament (running the same adventure) use different versions of the rules?

I was making the assumption that whatever house rules would be used for the game, would be used by all the DMs running that tournament. But your comment above makes me think that maybe the game could be different at different tables in the same tournament with the same adventure. This could make a tournament situation unfair to the participants.

And the difference wouldn't necessarily come from using/ignoring a rule chart, but could come from the simple adjudication of a spell. If one DM goes with "fireball expands to volume" and another doesn't, it could make a major difference in the outcome of the adventure. One group could TPK and another win even with all other strategies and tactics identical.

Bullgrit

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

If you have questions or suggestions by all mean ask or comment away.

Having recently run my first official convention game (which was OD&D at the North TX RPG Con), I have a few. How did the pacing go? Did the PCs get as far as you expected? Was the group size comparable to what you're used to, or larger/smaller? Any comments on that?

With the adventure module, is it specifically a tournament adventure? Does it contain any advice on running or designing tournament sessions? Do you consider it a good example of a tournament design? Did it have specific goals, or a general goal, or what? How was the tournament scored?

 

[Crothian]

And this raises another point: Did/do different DMs in the same tournament (running the same adventure) use different versions of the rules?

AFAIK we were all using the same rules but I wasn't at their table so there easily could have been things done differently. I made that comment because different DMs deal with issues well, differently. And someone who was upset with me could be passed to another DM using the same rules but the player would be happy there. If not then they don't have to play, it's a convention game and not all games are worth staying for.