To Mike Mearls: Melee training and the Battlemind

[Argyle King]

Except in order to make your MBA worth anything you'd need a 16 STR. Good luck getting a 16 in an otherwise useless non-secondary ability score. AND you have to keep pumping it up. This is simply not a viable option. It isn't even "not quite optimum" it is actually making your character terribly unoptimized. The need for stat bumps in order to stay relevant at higher levels insures that the costs of doing things like this are large and grow larger at higher levels.

Personally I think stat bumps were a bad idea to start with. They create a really large number of extra constraints on characters for no really measurable overall benefit to the system. That's really getting pretty far OT though.

Hmm... on one hand I agree, but, on the other, I'm not sure. Unless it has been hit with errata (I'm not up to date on all of it,) Expertise with a staff would help both with casting through it and attacking with it. That helps a little bit. I think there are a few other tricks to get a few bumps, but I'm not sure because I'm not nearly as fluent in 4E as I used to be. It's something I'll have to consider more.

I do agree that the structure of 4E seems like it could have worked without stat increases or at least with less stat increases. The chance to hit remains the same and fairly consistant over 30 levels. Instead of stat increases, maybe higher levels could have kept the numbers consistant across levels and simply given higher level characters/monsters more options and more ways to refresh their powers. I would have been ok with this, but I think it might have the side effect of grounding 4E a little bit more when it comes to reality and being a little bit harsher on PCs when it comes to using skills to pull off crazy stunts than what many others would like.

When we talked about the change to Melee Training, we also talked about feats, powers, and other options for classes that like basic attacks but don't use Strengths. It's something that is on our to do list.

I'll make sure we look at the shaman AC issue while I'm at it and approach it from a similar angle.

sounds like it could be fertile ground for a few PP ideas

 

[Thrael]

I want a single feat to use STR for determining hp (and thus healing surge values), number of extra healing surges as well as replace any CON modifier specific riders and feat benefits.

Don't like it? Yes that's how powerful the Battlemind is, using a better stat than STR as a primary. Just like in 3E the balance between DEX > INT is also skewed as is between WIS > CHA but the many skills (knowledge/social) remedy that somewhat. Not so with CON > STR.

Leave the stronger MBAs to STR... by a mere 3 (heroic) or 5 (epic) damage, with declining significance as one accumulates static bonuses to [W].

 

[Zaran]

The only reason melée training is being changed is so someone can't make a 8 str fighter and make him so he is just as good as a normal strength based fighter. This was not possible until essentials.

So they are changing an established rule to balance a product I have no intention of using. This I do not like. So now I have to weigh if ddi is worth the money to keep active over having my character changed in a way I do not want. I think if they are going to change their rules they should give us the option to filter out the changes if we want like we have the option to not use certain books. Maybe make it so we get the old melee training and old magic missile if we uncheck Heroes of the Forgotten Editions in preferences

 

[ripster0]

Any change in Essentials is no different than a change in a new powers or players book. Bigger changes have been made due to issues that existed long before Essentials.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

OP, you're killing me. Mind Spike is GOD. It lives in heaven and is attended by seraphim, who have six wings apiece. Why do I need an opportunity attack when I can shift as an opportunity action and then cram 25-odd force & psychic damage into someone's cerebellum?

 

[karolusb]

I want a single feat to use STR for determining hp (and thus healing surge values), number of extra healing surges as well as replace any CON modifier specific riders and feat benefits.

Don't like it? Yes that's how powerful the Battlemind is, using a better stat than STR as a primary. Just like in 3E the balance between DEX > INT is also skewed as is between WIS > CHA but the many skills (knowledge/social) remedy that somewhat. Not so with CON > STR.

Leave the stronger MBAs to STR... by a mere 3 (heroic) or 5 (epic) damage, with declining significance as one accumulates static bonuses to [W].

Everyone boo-hoo's for the poor forgotten strength stat. Makes no sense to me. Having played a 10 str paladin, I couldn't carry an adventurers kit, 8 str I couldn't have worn armor. So perhaps we should take a step back from the most unrealistic arguments here.

It takes a 17 str to get light blade mastery. Higher for every other melee weapon. Poelarm gamble, scimitar dance, hammer rhythm, Heavy blade oppurtunity. All armor feats above leather. . .

Oh well those feats all suck anyway, never see a Charop character based entirely around any one of them, yeah str is far and away the least valuable Stat. Since there is no way to raise initiative, healing surges or hit points by large amounts with feats, all optimized melee characters should have low str and high dex/con, clearly it's the only way to play the game (unless you nerf melee training of course).

 

[Katsue]

OP, you're killing me. Mind Spike is GOD. It lives in heaven and is attended by seraphim, who have six wings apiece. Why do I need an opportunity attack when I can shift as an opportunity action and then cram 25-odd force & psychic damage into someone's cerebellum?

Because they can just charge your teammates if you don't have a good opportunity attack, and Mind Spike won't help a damn because they're no longer adjacent to you. This is why Blurred Step was errataed to be a free action.

 

[Katsue]

Melee Training even post-nerf makes everyone competent in fast rolling melees. If you want to be outstanding then pick a close combat class.

A close combat class like the Paladin, the Rogue, the Avenger, the Bard, the Artificer, the Assassin, the Ardent, the Battlemind and the Monk?

 

[DracoSuave]

So...

....at heroic you lose 2 points of damage. At best.

At epic you lose 4 points of damage. 5 if you're absolutely minmaxxed. Which you aren't if you're a build that requires melee basic attacks and Melee training to make work anyways.

So...

'Really lame' or 'heavy nerf' is 2-4 points of damage these days?

No. A heavy nerf would be 4-8.

I mean... a battlemind....

Well his main punishment is mind spike, which has nothing to do with melee attacks. So... melee training doesn't help that much. And they have opportunity attacks that penalize their attack rolls or remove their chance at combat advantage.

Who takes Melee Training for a battlemind? That's like saying that Two-Weapon Fighting is needed to make a ranger work, while eschewing Twin Strike.

If you're concerned as a battlemind with taking opportunity attacks (a question that is individual to your group, its tactics, and the DM's general predelictions, and outside the scope of 'min-maxing' discussions) then you take the powers that make you good at it.

 

[DracoSuave]

A close combat class like the Paladin, the Rogue, the Avenger, the Bard, the Artificer, the Assassin, the Ardent, the Battlemind and the Monk?

Paladins have a melee basic attack available as an at-will power, if you're not Strength inclined.

Rogues that care about opportunity attacks are Strength based... the other types tend to avoid remaining in melee for long enough for it to matter.

Avengers you have a point with, but they've other means to guarantee stickiness... and if they don't they're built to -encourage- escape so they can persue.

Bards, Ardents, and Artificers don't care about melee basic attacks. They are the -source- of them for others.

Monks, unlike many strikers, can't benefit from striker damage outside their turn. Flurry of Blows can't be used except during their turn, so they're not as likely to benefit.

If an Assassin missed with his attack, he's either already expended his shroud, or he's building it up. Neither allow him to really utilize his striker damage off turn.

That leaves the Battlemind, which as pointed out above, has the ability to make opportunity attacks that don't involve MBA.

2 points of damage aren't exactly killing -any- of these classes.