Talk me down: Withdrawal

[radmod]

Believable? Ok, let's play a game of tag on the playground. If I go 1 min. w/o you tagging me, I win. You move 50, I move 30. You graciously let me go first (or I win initiative).
Real Life:
I run around the jungle gym. You follow, easily catch up and get a swat at me. You may or may not hit me, but you, at least, got the opportunity. I don't think I'll last 10 rounds.
D&D:
Round 1: I run around the jungle gym using a double move (60'). You follow and easily catch up to me and stand in front of me (avoiding any AoO).
Round 2: I was clever enough not to be up against the jungle gym, so I can withdraw backwards and you get no AoO in any spot I move. You follow and easily ....
Round 3 to 10: Same as round 2.
I win!

Real Fantasy World:
I run around the jungle gym. You take a move action so I'm in LOS. You fireball me/magic missle me/shoot me with an arrow. You win.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Respectfully, I'm not entirely sure you want to be talked down out of banning withdrawal. It's certainly your right to do so. However, it penalizes the players, which usually turns out to be a bad thing for the party, so on that reason alone, I think it's worth allowing it.

Uder and PolterGhost pretty much stated the major reasons why it exists: it prevents melee combat from becoming this thing that no one can escape from without triggering massive AoOs (unless you have Tumble, which most classes don't). My group's current favorite book, the Rules Compendium, gives an example of just how horrible it can be to be willing to trigger AoOs, and there are plenty enough monsters whose touch you simply don't want to risk ... withdraw can give an option out of that.

We have two new players who regularly forget to protect themselves from triggering AoO: one is a rogue who has sufficient Tumble, and one is a druid who simply forgets about the Withdraw action. Both of them end up getting swiped at by monsters on a regular basis, and often get hit, taking a bunch of damage before they even get a chance to do what it is they planned to do. After that happened a few times, they finally started to get a little more judicious about movement in combat, and given neither of them has great AC, it's proven helpful for the characters and the players. The others in the party either stay in one place once in melee range (the fighter), or have other means of quick movement that don't provoke AoOs.

 

[radmod]

Oh, no, if someone can provide a valid or 'realism' argument (besides purely gamist) I have no problem with keeping it in. And, as I mentioned, I do allow a different withdrawal: step + move action, not just a double move.
I can't tell you how many house rules I've changed at player's behest on the basis of realism. Even gamist.

I have that same problem about players, only, IMO, stupider. I've got a girl who's picked up some of the subtle things of D&D in the last year. However, she always, always tries casting a spell in someone's face (and it rarely works).

 

[PolterGhost]

Oh, no, if someone can provide a valid or 'realism' argument (besides purely gamist) I have no problem with keeping it in.

I thought I did. Huh. Anyways, let me give another example, outside the mechanics:

Marcus could barely keep up with the Duke's swings. Every spark that struck from their bouncing blades only served to remind Marcus that his own spark was fading- another minute of this and he might have to submit. They battled in the centre of the mighty plateau, under the heat of the desert sun. There was no place to retreat to, no time to rest. As the sparks flashed past his eyes, another spark lit up inside Marcus' head. Yes, he had a plan, but he'd have to get lucky.

He swung his sword up, catching the Duke's blade in his cross guard. He took the chance, slipping his blade off the Duke's prized longsword as he hopped back. He rapidly backpedaled, keeping his blade in front of him to guard against the coming blows.
"Where do you think you will go, knave?" the Duke laughed at Marcus as he continued fencing. "I only know of one place that you will go."

Marcus twisted his body, swinging his blade out to bat away the approaching blow. Facing the edge of the plateau, he made a small dash, his sword trailing behind him. He spun on his foot at the cliff's edge, his muscles tense as he faced the Duke. The noble had kept up with his pace, Marcus nearly losing balance as he parried yet another mighty blow.
"I'll drop you down into Hell! There's no place for you to escape now!" the Duke haughtily stated. "After I've spilled your blood, I'll tear the Cutta Stone from your corpse!"

A grin stretched across Marcus' face.
"You're right, I can't escape. But you've seem to made one critical error, my lord."
Marcus reached out, pushing the Duke's arm away with his free hand. In one fluid motion, he slammed his shoulder into the noble's chest, and with a solid effort he flipped the Duke over his back. Wiping the sweat off his forehead, Marcus turned to look over the cliff. Hanging on by the tips of his fingers, the Duke struggled to keep his grasp on the ledge.
"H-help! Help me!" His voice quivered with fear as his wide eyes stared into Marcus'.
"I apologize, my lord. I didn't mean to leave you hanging."

Marcus sheathed his sword before reaching down for the Duke's hands- and letting his hold slip. With an echoing scream, the Duke descended into the abyss.
"Sorry about that, but I felt I had to drop the issue."
He looked down at the Duke's signet ring, plucked from the man's hand before Marcus dropped him. To think, all of this would have been a lot easier if he could have just tied the man down and chopped off his ring finger.

So, after Marcus fought for a few rounds, losing some HP in the process against the greater skilled Duke, he decided to perform a Withdraw action towards the edge of the cliff- A bad situation if the Duke wanted to Bull Rush him off the edge. But luckily for Marcus, the Duke wanted something he had, so he only made a Charge to catch up with him and bring a sword strike down towards him.

Marcus had no place to escape at this point: With the edge of the plateau acting as a wall, Marcus would only be able to 5-foot step around the Duke to escape. If he had tried to Withdraw, he would only be able to escape from the first instance of AoO- He would still have to move through a second square to truly get around him, and thus get attacked.

With a bit of split-second planning and a lot of luck, Marcus performed a successful Grapple action on the Duke, shoving him into a square adjacent to him- Right off the cliff. The Duke made a successful Reflex to grab on, and Marcus decided to use a miscellaneous Standard action to grab him...and then drop him while stealing the signet ring he required to make his quest easier.

I suppose it's not the best explanation, but as it is Marcus made sure to keep himself protected against the Duke the best he could as he made way towards the cliff. Of course, the Duke can easily catch up with a single Charge, making things all the more perilous for Marcus...

 

[DumbPaladin]

Wow, you got an example, and a little story to go with it!

... does Marcus get to become the new Duke? It seems only fair.

 

[radmod]

Ignore this, I was addressing the wrong person.

 

[radmod]

I thought I did. Huh.

Sorry, I should've responded to your post directly, but I stupidly thought I had covered it with others.

Your argument is the best I've seen so far.
However, I still have problems with it.

1) Inconsistency. A normal double move allows you just to move. You can do nothing else that is not considered part of movement, or appropriate free actions. With the exception of certain actions, such as step+attack and charge, D&D does not allow you to take the equivalent of two actions while doing something else. In fact, standard D&D doesn't even allow a step to avoid AoO in conjunction with a move (I house rule is that a step can be taken as a move). Why can't I backpedal as you indicate and then when I see no one is following, cast a spell? I can't.
2) Believability. As above, a normal double move doesn't allow you to effectively do anything else that seems like an action. A step is believable because you are actively defending against attack but you are limited to 5 ft. A charge (in a sense a double move + standard action) is believable because momentum can provide an effective attack and, in effect, the chargee is somewhat off-guard. I don't see RAW withdrawal as believable, because even backpedaling quickly realistically would provide an AoO. Also, in simult terms, a backpedaling character who is being followed cannot realistically avoid the following creature (especially if faster) from attack attempts.
This brings up your concept of hustling. It's kind of funny because in my worlds all characters, unless specified or appropriate to the situation, are always considered to be hustling in combat. This is based on the concept that a creature cannot realistically walk his movement and make a truly effective attack. The concept of the withdrawing PC does not negate the idea that the following creature is also hustling. Essentially the movement rates are the same.
I like your explanation but I don't think it technically works. This is why, as I mentioned, we house ruled in 2e that a character can essentially take a move action up to half his move and defend themself.

As to your wonderful story (kudos!):
My current house withdraw (a step + move) covers Marcus in the same manner as RAW.

Also, what if we changed the story slightly:
he made a small dash around the corner of the wall, his sword trailing behind him.
In this case, the nefarious duke would not be allowed any attack, including the charge you indicated or an AoO. Even under my house withdrawal, he would not get an attack if their speeds were the same. However, if the duke were faster, he would. I find that realistic. This was similar to the situation that led to the house rule in the first place.

 

[PolterGhost]

I think the main issue that Withdraw has is that it falls under the "6 second round" issue. The biggest problem with Initiative and keeping track of Rounds is that most players and DMs avoid the fact that even though the rules explicitly state that all action is happening at the same time, everyone takes turns as if it was a game of Final Fantasy.
"Well, my ATB came up, so now it's my turn to attack or run."
Well, that's very true, it is your turn. The issue is that in this simulation, everyone else is moving at precisely the same time you are, they just have
A. Better/worse reflexes
B. More/less of a grasp of the combat around them
C. (Exactly as above) Higher/lower Initiative order.

The reasoning behind AoO AFAIK is that the character is performing something that's mostly unfeasible in a fencing situation (Concentrating on the movements and chant of a spell while simultaneously parrying and dodging blows, walking out of a fencing match to focus on another task, encroaching upon your opponent to try to get a hold on them, etc.) Forcing a hustle into the equation while acting as a defence maneuver does start to stretch things.

Though, there is one situation in which it can fully work:
LLewellyn, the party's Evoker, is being attacked by a Dolgrim. He tries to bat away blows with his staff to the best of his ability while trying to stay far the hell away from the Dolgrim. Suddenly, the beast is stopped as Magni, the resident dwarf Ranger, interposes himself between the retreating Llewellyn and the monster, and suddenly Llewellyn has time to think and breath while out of the way of danger.

Because I don't feel like using quote tags,
"This brings up your concept of hustling. It's kind of funny because in my worlds all characters, unless specified or appropriate to the situation, are always considered to be hustling in combat. This is based on the concept that a creature cannot realistically walk his movement and make a truly effective attack."
Fact is, people won't be bouncing around a battlefield, especially in the Chainmail-inspired D&D. If they were always in a state of such action, they'd be tired within a minute. However, if your idea of a hustle is to make quick darting movements hither and thither, well, that's accomplished rather well by attack rolls, AC, and hp, hmm?

When you're fencing, your character can move around within any part of their 5 foot square, and it can be believable that they can move into other squares for a short second period to dodge or attack. When you make your Move and Standard strike, you're looking for an opening to attack the opponent while keeping your guard up. They might throw a quick swing or feint towards you to get you to leap back or hold your blow. Obviously, you won't be leaping back twenty feet or dashing to the top of a nearby boulder with your Move action while you're busy fighting someone- That's where you drop the matters and hustle and put your focus into what you're doing.

Of course, if you do want people to do 30 foot jumps across the plain of battle, then you could play Exalted.

So yes, I see your point, and I don't mind five-foot step+move. Obviously, the point of this discussion is to prove why Withdraw is in the game and what it does for simulation. I think I've provided enough examples to give a semi-decent viewpoint on the subject. It's not perfect, but trying to keep things in perspective can be that way. IIRC, AD&D before 3.0 never had double moves to begin with, so perhaps keeping them out of the game is for the best...but I do like combat options, especially if I'm a fleshy guy and I need a meatwall right then and there.

 

[radmod]

I think the main issue that Withdraw has is that it falls under the "6 second round" issue. The biggest problem with Initiative and keeping track of Rounds is that most players and DMs avoid the fact that even though the rules explicitly state that all action is happening at the same time, everyone takes turns as if it was a game of Final Fantasy.

So, so, true.

Though, there is one situation in which it can fully work:
LLewellyn, the party's Evoker, is being attacked by a Dolgrim. He tries to bat away blows with his staff to the best of his ability while trying to stay far the hell away from the Dolgrim. Suddenly, the beast is stopped as Magni, the resident dwarf Ranger, interposes himself between the retreating Llewellyn and the monster, and suddenly Llewellyn has time to think and breath while out of the way of danger.

Aw, come on, you can do better than that.
"LLewellyn, the frail Evoker, armed only with a simple, ineffective staff attempts his best to bat away ..."

Fact is, people won't be bouncing around a battlefield, especially in the Chainmail-inspired D&D. If they were always in a state of such action, they'd be tired within a minute. However, if your idea of a hustle is to make quick darting movements hither and thither, well, that's accomplished rather well by attack rolls, AC, and hp, hmm?

Yes.

When you're fencing...

This gives me an idea for a Bluff and Run type action; sort of like a feint and move but I don't see, under RAW, a way to do it.

IIRC, AD&D before 3.0 never had double moves to begin with, so perhaps keeping them out of the game is for the best...but I do like combat options, especially if I'm a fleshy guy and I need a meatwall right then and there.

No, pre-3x didn't have double moves, only move and run. I changed the 2e combat round to essentially two half rounds which allowed you to move and cast, do a double move, etc. I've kept the same premise for 3.5. Please note, I don't get rid of the double move, just the RAW withdraw. Especially since I use the two half-rounds idea, sometimes a person might move, find nothing to do and then decide to move again (that's happened often). Or a low level might move and then draw a weapon, or vice versa, as a double move. Or ... you get the picture.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Please note, I don't get rid of the double move, just the RAW withdraw.

So ultimately, do you actually have a problem with rendering the square the character starts in as no longer threatened ... or the chance that this will give anyone -- PC or enemy -- to avoid AoOs?

What about the restricted withdraw? Would it suffice as your game's "standard" withdraw action?

(quoted from SRD)
Restricted Withdraw If you are limited to taking only a http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#standardActionsstandard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed (rather than up to double your speed).