Versatile Expertise, Weapon as an Implement, and Monk

[Shin Okada]

Versatile Expertise says,

Benefit: Choose a weapon group and an implement type. You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls both when using a weapon from the chosen group and when using an implement of the chosen type.

Now, unlike Weapon Expertise nor Implement Expertise, this feat does not limit the type of attack as "weapon attack" or "implement attack".

So I assume that when a Swordmage take, say "Versatile Expertise :Heavy Blade (as a weapon group)/Light Blade (as an implement)", He will gain attack bonus when,

1: Using a heavy blade as a weapon
2: Using a heavy blade as an implement
3: Using a light blade as a weapon
4: Using a light blade as an implement

Am I correct?

If so, what will happen if I choose "weapons with which you're proficient" as my choice of implement? This is written as a type of implement in Monk's class traits. So should be a legal choice.

Does that mean I can gain feat bonus to attack rolls whenever I use a weapon which I am proficient in as for a weapon attack or an implement attack?

 

[Arivendel]

The Monk entry has a select list of weapons for which you are proficient (Unarmed Strikes, QuarteStaff, Dagger and club), The implements are Ki Focus and like you said "all weapons you are proficient with" namely the Staff, dagger, US, and Club.

When selecting the Implement (or Weapon) part of VE your choices are Staff, Clubs, Dagger and Unarmed Strikes (with the Addition of Ki Focus when selecting implements), you cannot bunch them by picking the magical "all weapons im proficient with" option, that was WotC just not wanting to repeat Club, Dagger, Staff and Unarmed Strikes in the entry thats all.

Overly redundant but i hope it helps.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It would also be not the intent:

If you learn a new weapons as a monk, it is automatically added to your list of implement. I really can´t follow, how you could even think, that you can have implement proficy of "any weapon"... this is just searching for loopholes.

If you look at something and think: it is ridiculous if I read it that way, but the other way looks balanced, you should save yourself some time and go with the non-munchkin reading.

 

[Shin Okada]

I am not trying to do munchkin-reading. I am more a DM than to be a player. Well, these days I usually run 7 games as a DM, and attend 3 games as a player, per month (including some on-line games). I am just trying to see what is the logical RAW reading of the rule. Because when asked by may players, I must be fair and logical.

Also, I am just curious about this topic.

The Monk entry has a select list of weapons for which you are proficient (Unarmed Strikes, QuarteStaff, Dagger and club), The implements are Ki Focus and like you said "all weapons you are proficient with" namely the Staff, dagger, US, and Club.

I largely doubt if that is even RAI. A monk character can be proficient in more weapons due to their racial traits. And a hybrid monk is proficient in many weapons which the other class gives him proficiency. Also, he can become proficient in more weapons by taking feats or choosing some paragon path.

If their intention was "Ki focus, Club, dagger, monk unarmed strike, quarterstaff, shuriken, sling, spear", then they should have wrote so. That will only add another line.

As per the current rule text, I cannot think of any way to read that, for example, an Eladrin Monk cannot use a longsword as his focus for monk powers.

When selecting the Implement (or Weapon) part of VE your choices are Staff, Clubs, Dagger and Unarmed Strikes (with the Addition of Ki Focus when selecting implements), you cannot bunch them by picking the magical "all weapons im proficient with" option, that was WotC just not wanting to repeat Club, Dagger, Staff and Unarmed Strikes in the entry thats all.

Overly redundant but i hope it helps.

It would also be not the intent:

If you learn a new weapons as a monk, it is automatically added to your list of implement. I really can´t follow, how you could even think, that you can have implement proficy of "any weapon"... this is just searching for loopholes.

If you look at something and think: it is ridiculous if I read it that way, but the other way looks balanced, you should save yourself some time and go with the non-munchkin reading.

The problem is, we have no example or guidance to guess how we should divide those "weapons with which you're proficient" into smaller implement types.

There are many classes which use some weapon or weapons as their implements.

Some classes, like swordmage, use words like "Any light blade or heavy blade", which are weapon category. On the other hand, some class such as Sorcerer has some specific weapon such as "dagger" as one of their implements. In case of Wizard and Invoker, they have "staff" as one of their implements and the magic item section of PHB mentions that"A staff implement can also function as a magic quarterstaff". There seems to be no default rule to categorize weapon implements.

Also, I doubt if that is even that strong if you can have +1 feat bonus to attack rolls with all of the weapons you are proficient in. How often one character use weapons of different category? Also, even if we allow Versatile Master to do this, you must take Weapon Focus for each weapon category if you want to be a master of those weapons. On the other hand, there is a feat called Weapon Master in Dragon 382. This feat expanse the benefit of your weapon focus and weapon expertise into all weapons you are proficient with.

If there is some rule or clarification to show the way to categorize monk's weapon implements. But at this moment I just cannot find out any.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

ok, so i chose any "light blade as implement" as swordmage...???

any weapon you are proficient is by default: club, sling etc.
but you can extend it by taking weapon proficiency sword.

tell me how you would write that in a simple way? When i read your posts, i wonder f thee is any possibility to write rules in a way that prvents munchkinism.

Sorry. I bet none of your players will argue if you say no, "any weapon" is not an impement...

 

[Arivendel]

My bad i was using the monk class in a vacuum to explain things and did not consider things like races or MC.

Yes if you gain proficiency with additional Weapons you can therefore treat them as implements, but only those weapons (unless the proficiency grants you access to a weapon group in which case you can select the whole group instead) so i would assume VE would take each weapon separatedly unless you have access to the group (and no dont try the "but what about the spear?" argument because that refers to the WEAPON Spear not the Weapon GROUP).

And in case its not clear the group would still be limited to the type of group you are able to access (Simple, Martial, Superior)

 

[Shin Okada]

ok, so i chose any "light blade as implement" as swordmage...???

Why not? That seems to be more in line with other feats. Most weapon related feats choose one weapon category and give benefit what ever weapon actually used, as long as that weapon is within that category.

For example, you take Weapon Focus (Axe), not Weapon Focus (Waraxe). And the damage bonus is applied whenever you uses some kind of axe. You can even ally this bonus when you wield an axe as an implement.

Other feats such as Headsman’s Chop allows you even wider range of weapons (in this case axe or heavy blade). And you can use the benefit of the feat even when using a weapon as implement.

Also, superior Implement rule work in much similar way. They are like superior weapons. All the superior orbs are still considered to be orbs and thus you don't need to take separate expertise feats. You may first take Implement Expertise or Versatile Expertise for Orb and then take Superior Implement Training (Accurate Orb) and apply benefit of the former feat when using Accurate Orb.

If so, why a swordmage cannot take Implement Expertise or Versatile Expertise for Heavy Blade at 1st-level, then take Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and apply the benefit of the former feat when using his bastard sword? Isn't it more in line than, say, letting a swordmage only designate specific sword such as "longsword" when he choose Expertise feat?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I didn´t actually check if the feat works on a weapon group or a weapon. If it works on a group, you can have weapon expertise light blade, of course. Maybe that was a bad example.
Maybe you could take it and apply it to all maces... but "any weapon you are proficient in" is no weapon or implement group.

Sorry. Really sorry for that. But it doesn´t work this way. Why you ask me? Because you somehow try to get expertise for every weapon you carry or learn. This seems wrong (if you don´t think EVERYONE should have all expertise feats for free or at the cost of 1 feat)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I didn´t actually check if the feat works on a weapon group or a weapon. If it works on a group, you can have weapon expertise light blade, of course. Maybe that was a bad example.
Maybe you could take it and apply it to all maces... but "any weapon you are proficient in" is no weapon or implement group.

Sorry. Really sorry for that. But it doesn´t work this way. Why you ask me? Because you somehow try to get expertise for every weapon you carry or learn. This seems wrong (if you don´t think EVERYONE should have all expertise feats for free or at the cost of 1 feat)

Highlighted. This is the key Versatile Expertise allows you to pick a TYPE of implement to be proficient in. "Any weapon you are proficient in" is NOT a type of implement, it is a rule which indicates WHICH types of implements the monk can use. ALL weapons are monk implements. Now, does that make ALL weapons a single type of implement? I kind of doubt it. The opposite interpretation then is each type of weapon is A single type of implement, or possibly each individual NAMED weapon is a type of implement. Both of these alternatives work fine with Swordmage BTW because again any given Swordmage only HAS one implement to want Expertise with, whichever kind of sword he happens to use.

So there is a rules question there, but there's no 'loophole' that lets you gain Expertise with every weapon you're proficient with. Personally, going by the original example of the staff and dagger, that each named weapon is itself a specific implement type. You have to pick one, so if you take Versatile Expertise you can pick Rapier as that implement, but not Light Blades. I see nothing in the rules to contradict this. Likewise a monk has to pick a specific Weapon/Implement to put his expertise in (at least on the Implement side). This does mean implements work a little different than weapons with Expertise, but is that really a problem?

 

[Shin Okada]

Hmm. Well, it seems that there seem to be no "by RAW" answer for this.

But I am also convinced that treating each named weapon, say, longsword or fullblade, will not penalize players much even in case of Swordmage (actually, one of my friends once made a sword mage PC who used dynamic weapon as his choice of magic weapon and that PC may have a little trouble if he can't choose "heavy blade" as his implement type. But it is not that significant.)