males playing females and the other way around, opinions?

[Dannyalcatraz]

The only other place I can think of where romance equals graphic sexual content is certain breeds of "romance novel" aimed at bored housewives.

Note to self: design Housewives & Hussies RPG...

 

[Abraxas]

Fair enough. I'm glad to have had the experience. For a second I was annoyed, too, about Jas becoming smitten, but, I figured, roll with it and make it mine, and see where it goes.

I mean, I hope you're not saying that you'd be annoyed with Jas making googly eyes at a character that forced those very rolls on her. Besides that, the GM supplied the enemies and deals and all that.

Wait a minute...are you saying the other PC had some sort of power, an actual in game mechanical effect, that started the whole thing

If that's the case that is something else I don't want in a game I play in - players should always get to choose how their PCs deal with other player's PCs. If a player has her/his PC use a power on another's PC, especially one that would change the victim's behavior, that's unacceptable (in general - I can envision a few uses where it could be necessary and explained in such a way that another player wouldn't mind)

 

[Sunseeker]

That sounds a lot like a stylistic choice made on the point of a player, or perhaps on a campaign that decides to spend a lot of time in a dungeon. Sure, the half-orc paladin wears plate whether he's male or female. But at the formal event, only one of them is likely to wear a dress. And even though the "dress up like a civilian would" trope may be the same idea regardless of gender, a dress means different things than pants.

The "men wear pants and women wear dresses" is a usual trope of mass media to show that behind this tough woman there is a soft feminine side, and that can be true, just as behind this tough male soldier there can be a soft kitten-cuddling, rabbit-hugging soft side. But there are just as often military women who wear pants, formal "outfits" look very much like mens outfits for them, some of them attend formal events in the miltiary dress uniforms. And if we're still going with actual history here, throughout history, many men of many different social classes wore clothing similar to women. Weathly Westerners of the past wore heels, with long skirt-like robes, the Japanse developed a variety of dress that is fairly unisex, it's purpose simply a light wear fitting to work or to fighting. In poorer classes, men and women from around the world wore pants, because it was simpler and easier to work in than a dress.

An approach to casual sex is likely to be fairly different too, because unless birth control is 100% available and reliable, there are very different consequences for men and women every chance encounter. A male bard might come back to a town years later to find a child that looks kind of like him. A female bard is pregnant wherever she goes. Even in games where it's assumed that the GM won't get your character pregnant without your permission, I find that female characters are frequently more picky about their liaisons simply because the players find it more plausible.

Again, most games are going to assume sex is just sex, people who feel the desire to make sex into something more REALLY need to take their games less seriously. And yes, it is something you COULD play into your character, but you could just as easily say your fighter was wounded and is sterile, or your druid uses the power of nature to control her cycle, or heck, your druid believes that having children is a GOOD thing, and wants to get pregnant, even in the middle of a grand adventure! Yes, these are things you could portray as part of your character, but they are things that involve other things that generally only serve to complicate games.

If a GM doesn't acknowledge a PC's gender in some way, then it doesn't matter how much value the player puts on that gender — it's automatically next to zero. That in itself runs the risk of alienating the player. Maybe the player wants to run into prejudice, but maybe not: maybe the player just wants to see a barkeep say "ma'am" instead of "sir," or "milady" instead of "milord," because it gives the impression that the GM is paying attention to them, and trying to visualize the character they describe. If you get the feeling that just about any cipher of a player character could go through the campaign and nothing would change, it can remove any sense of ownership or belonging.

I'm not saying that the GM shouldn't acknowledge the PC's gender, or that the GM shouldn't act on it at ALL, but just that, for most significant reasons that we should differentiate men and women, such as sex and child bearing, these things serve only to make the game more complicated in a bad way. Which means they are by and large, things to be avoided. And things avoided have no bearing on the game.

That said, so much of this seems to boil down to a communication issue. It's always easier not to talk about things, or to set up rules like "nobody can play cross-gender" or "everybody can play cross-gender" that can be pointed to instead of talking things out. But I'd always recommend talking with players about every character they make.

I COMPLETELY agree, DMs and players should strive to communicate with each other the intent of the story and the intent of the players when making their characters. Many games I've partaken of often have 2 or 3 "introduction" sessions to get everyone to meet each other, and for players to talk with the GM about what they want to do and how they want to do their character.

No, they're really not. And in fact, the first time the GM makes a pronoun error with the PC, the experience is going to be different for the player. Gender is not an inconsequential construct. The idea of gender-neutrality is conceivable only in a world with no genders. It's like the old joke... I don't have an accent, everyone else does.

I'm not saying it's entirely inconsequential, just that it's much less significant than it seems it's being made out into.

I agree that the characters are similar, but there a thousand something-elses that change the experience. For instance, let's say you defeat a vicious opponent. One of the PCs decides to urinate on the villain's corpse. That presents a substantially different picture if the PC is in question is the female fighter, versus a male fighter, versus another PC in the presence of the PC fighter, and so forth.

Women are actually capable of this....and this knowledge is...strange.

Characters have names, and the vast majority of names are gendered. The vast majority of names have associations, as well.

In the real world? sure. In a fantasy world? Only if you want them to.

Isn't that enough?

Yes, but again, the value of it is determined by the player. How "female" they want to be is up to them.

I would be cautious in assuming, but I would not make NO assumptions. Human interaction largely doesn't work like that.

Fortunately for us all, in the particular setting of RPs, human interaction is only what you want it to be.

Here's a question for y'all. Imagine a player decides to play a prank on the other players. He's a male player. He conceives of a female barbarian and imagines what she would be like. However, he gives a male name and tells all the other players he is playing a male character. He plays only the psychological aspects of being female. First of all, can anyone tell? Second, is there any aspect of femininity that can be captured by the masculine mind? Third, is his character rendered unbelievable? Fourth, if a character is "more feminine" in behavior, what does that mean if we are talking about a male playing a male character?

1: Could they? Without an image, it's possible they might not, perceptions are funny things like that, everyone has their own.
2: That depends entirely on what that particular guy defines "feminine" as, and if he can appropriately translate that into his character.
3: Doubtful.
4: A more feminine man? Again, it depends on what you want to define "feminine" as. A feminine barbarian by barbarian standards could be a woman who likes her hair long, when it is impractical to fighting. Or possibly "feminine" traits could be see as intelligence, ie: knowing how to read and write(an actual in-game option). While neither of these traits would appear particularly feminine to outside society, or modern IRL society.

 

[S'mon]

I've noticed a few people are weary due to real life cues, such as tripping over calling the male player "She" or "her" or hearing the distinctly male voice (or even worse, a terrible falsetto) for their character.

How would, or how does, your opinion change in an online game?

I don't have very much experience playing female PCs online, but as a GM I definitely find it easier to play female NPCs in-depth in a pbem or text-chat game. It greatly reduces the potential for embarrassment IME. Mind you I think it's also easier to play male NPCs in-depth online in text-based formats, because the format allows for much more time to think about the psychology of the character.

 

[S'mon]

By the way, this makes me think: who has romance in their games? I've had all sorts of different kinds of romance in all sorts of different ways, and I don't really worry about matching character gender to player gender. Certainly, it's usually a stretch to match character gender to GM gender. But otherwise--one night fade-to-black stands, Bond Girls, carefully calculated pregnancies, spouses, courtly love, being called away on family emergencies, crass distractions, crushes, puppy love, I've seen and done it all. Who else does?

For me it depends a lot on the campaign. Most games have a little; for one thing it would be implausible for all the PCs to be asexual. Although I think my last two campaigns at my D&D Meetup (2008-present) have been entirely devoid of romance, partly by player preference I think. My current online City State of the Invincible Overlord online game on dragonsfoot has much more of that, in 8 game sessions so far there have been two fade-to-blacks; one a one-night-stand, the other the start of a relationship between a PC and his NPC adventurer girlfriend. By contrast there have been 9 combat encounters that I can recall, which is a much higher sex-to-combat ratio than I normally see in a D&D game!

 

[S'mon]

It's kind of unfortunate that this even needs to be a qualifier for purposes of admitting "there is romance in our games." The only other place I can think of where romance equals graphic sexual content is certain breeds of "romance novel" aimed at bored housewives.

When I was much younger and foolisher (ie ca 2002) I did once have a D&D PBEM derailed by a bored New York housewife in just this manner - it can be a risk with a few players online, for whom 'roleplaying' may imply something different; the GM needs to set firm boundaries over what's acceptable. Never been a problem in a round-table game though.

 

[S'mon]

Note to self: design Housewives & Hussies RPG...

You might find that difficult - a couple days ago my wife was explaining to me the difference between RPGs and formula romance novels. Basically, in an RPG it's very important to be in control, whereas romance novel plots centre around willingly surrendering control. In an RPG, surrendering control normally leads to deprotagonisation, which is undesirable. So you might be able to recreate the romance-novel form in game-book format, but almost certainly not in a regular RPG.

 

[S'mon]

Wait a minute...are you saying the other PC had some sort of power, an actual in game mechanical effect, that started the whole thing

If that's the case that is something else I don't want in a game I play in - players should always get to choose how their PCs deal with other player's PCs. If a player has her/his PC use a power on another's PC, especially one that would change the victim's behavior, that's unacceptable (in general - I can envision a few uses where it could be necessary and explained in such a way that another player wouldn't mind)

Casting 'charm person' on another PC seems at least as bad as physically attacking them - it's very bad table etiquette, to say the least, and should probably be forbidden. A player who persists should probably be expelled from the group.

 

[Nameless1]

You might find that difficult - a couple days ago my wife was explaining to me the difference between RPGs and formula romance novels. Basically, in an RPG it's very important to be in control, whereas romance novel plots centre around willingly surrendering control. In an RPG, surrendering control normally leads to deprotagonisation, which is undesirable. So you might be able to recreate the romance-novel form in game-book format, but almost certainly not in a regular RPG.

Indie games have no problem with this. I have not played any, but I am pretty sure that there are romance RPGs in the indie scene. I think that Breaking the Ice is a romance RPG.

EDIT:

Breaking the Ice is a Romantic Comedy role playing game for two players. Players help one another tell the tale of romance arising between two characters, and the set-backs and wacky twists the lovers' tale may take. Quick and easy, the game can be played in one sitting with no prior preparation required.

Play out the ups and downs of a couple's first three dates. From first bumbling attempts to get to know one another, to the stirrings of trust and desire. Watch the attraction flare, and see if the flame will light a fire that will last for a lifetime—or just burn brightly for a moment, and then flicker out.

Unique word-web character generation.
Simple and intuitive mechanics.
Collaborative, synergistic play.
Great introductory game for non-gamers.
Rules for more than two players.
"Breaking the Ice is a rare thing: a delight as a story, and a truly interesting game. It blows away any traditional RPG I've ever seen." - Clinton R. Nixon, creator of The Shadow of Yesterday
"The great beauty of the game is, if I can say it poetically, that it is an ode to our vulnerability." - Victor Gijsbers

 

[S'mon]

Indie games have no problem with this. I have not played any, but I am pretty sure that there are romance RPGs in the indie scene. I think that Breaking the Ice is a romance RPG.

The 'Romance Novel' formula =/= "dating" or even "romance", it's a very distinct formula where a powerful older man with some threatening characteristics falls for a younger, relatively inexperienced female protagonist. It's a very specific fantasy with a set structure. I think it doesn't much resemble most "romantic comedies" either, though there are some transitional works with elements of both.

Edit: That said, the formula would be much more workable in author-stance 'story creation' indie games than with the immersive, actor-stance, in-character approach of traditional RPGs.