males playing females and the other way around, opinions?

[Sunseeker]

This is both the most gross mischaracterization of a post I have read in a while as well as a perfect example of a slippery slope falacy. I am not even sure that I will be able to respond in a way that will be understood.

I do apologize for that back there, though I quoted you, it wasn't actually directed at you. It was more of a reaction to where I saw people saying they feel they should perpetuate the misogynist past or real life history and make life difficult for female characters.

 

[fanboy2000]

I'm a little concerned that some folks don't seem to really understand what makes male and female characters different.

That's because it's a tough question. Consider this: Randall Munroe wanted to do a survey about what people named colors. A friend of his, Elizabeth, wanted some data on chromosomes because she's color blind (which is rare for woman because the color blindness gene is 1) recessive, and 2) on the X chromosome). This lead to the question "do you have a Y chromosome?" on the survey.

Anyways, when Randall talks about the genisis of this question he says something that I find illuminating:

The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics.

I find this interesting. It is a complex subject, and like many complex subjects, people deal with them differently in their choice of entertainment.

I don't have a problem with cross-gender roleplaying. Gender doesn't come-up a lot in my games, though I have a mix of genders among both the players and the PCs.

I let players decide what they want to empathize about their players. It might be gender or race, but I've found that most people I play with want to roleplay things like their profession (e.g. that time they were impressed into being a galley slave). I will, sua sponte, bring-up gender or race of my own volition on occasion. I'm a little more likely to do this with half-elves, because I can call them things like half-breed and mongrel.

 

[pawsplay]

But that isn't even required. You don't have to make something a huge deal in order to bring it to the table. But, you do have to make enough of it to get it noticed.

Let me turn it around. Why play a different gendered character and then never reference it at the table? Actually, let me broaden the question. Why add any characteristic to a character and then never bring it to the table? What's the point?

If your character is a 3 foot five midget with a lisp, but you never, ever reference this at the table, what was the point?

Are you suggesting it does not matter if a character has any characteristics at all? I guess I'm not following. Assigning a character a gender has value because then the character has a gender. Or eye color. Or whatever.

 

[Sunseeker]

Are you suggesting it does not matter if a character has any characteristics at all? I guess I'm not following. Assigning a character a gender has value because then the character has a gender. Or eye color. Or whatever.

But making mention of it assumes that you're going to make a point of that. Just because you're male or female, or orc or elvish, doesn't mean the player has any desire to play up that aspect. While the GM can choose to make NPCs react differently to them, it is still the player's choice to return the reaction.

 

[pawsplay]

But making mention of it assumes that you're going to make a point of that.

I'm not sure about that. It would be really hard to run a game where all the characters lacked an identifiable gender.

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm not sure about that. It would be really hard to run a game where all the characters lacked an identifiable gender.

But most games are really like that. Most female fighters aren't going to look that different from male fighters once you get them all dressed up in plate. Given their education and occupation, they'll probably have a similar outlook on life. Though physically somewhat different, a male and female barbarian are going to act more or less the same. Druids, male or female, will still value nature over the personal self and both will likely have similar attitudes towards non-druids.

And unless you're going to make NPCs react differently based on the PC's gender, then for all intents and purposes, any value in different genders is only given to them by the player. And noone but the player should attempt to assume why that player chose that race or gender. Putting psychological issues(as mentioned by others earlier), personal tastes, or what have you on them just plays it up to be more than it's worth.

Mountain out of a mole-hill and all that.

 

[S'mon]

I think we might have different ideas of the role of biology in our lives, but, you are absolutely right that gender differences manifest culturally. That's not to say they wouldn't exist without culture. Culture and expectations shape the way we think and behave, so there is nothing wrong with using cultural cues to shape a character. There's nothing disingenuous about it either, because it's how human beings shape their own identities. So if you say "I can't think of any gender differences that don't come down to culture," I wouldn't say you're inattentive at all, I would say you're looking too hard.

When I make characters, I take cues from real people around me. If these are cultural cues, it makes no difference. I look at my male friends and I see competition under a veneer of civility, I see conflicts that get resolved instead of simmering, I see easy bonds of friendship but private worlds that are never discussed. When I work outdoors, I see men returning to work before women, taking greater risks, and offering help instead of requesting it. When I work in the office, I see women preparing, instructing, and laying the tedious footwork that must always be done. In a workplace populated by women I see seething tensions and secret alliances, in any environment.

I see women who pass by donation boxes but cringe at the idea of a stray cat suffering, men who cannot help but pretend to be experts at everything, and I see little cues that make a character. The things that make a person interesting. They don't have to be true for everyone, they just have to evoke the right kind of person.

Thanks for the reality-based examples! "You must spread some XP around..."

 

[S'mon]

I have a philosophy about gaming that I did not invent myself, but I definitely try to play by it. Players are often not able to portray the "character" of their character without help. Character is defined by how you conduct yourself in various circumstances, as well as how others react to you. So it is everyone's responsibility to bring out each other's characters, through creation of situations that will highlight features of your character, as well as portray the reactions of the rest of the world to your character's actions. This play style is often called "I will make you cool."

It goes like this. A player can state that their character is beautiful. It usually falls flat. Sure, they are beautiful. A GM can make the NPCs around the character behave as if the character is beautiful, maybe fawning, maybe jealous, maybe just extra polite. Then the character comes alive. A player can state that their character is strong. Sure, they are strong. A GM can make enemies fly away at the strikes of the character, and doors may explode into splinters at a blow from their hammer. The caracter has come alive. It is the interface of world and character that gives meaning to the choices made by players, and it is where the rubber meets the road for real role-playing.

For issues like gender, a player can state that their character is female. And it sounds like many people just forget about it after that. But a good group introduces situations that make the choice of gender matter. Like maybe the female warrior is constantly underestimated, until she kicks some major butt. Or maybe a female thief has an easier time distracting a mark because she is beautiful and winks at him. Or maybe an orc chieftain ignores the female leader of a party and speaks to the hulking but ignorant male barbarian, because maybe the orc is a mysogynist. Or maybe there are things that a male character just has no access to. Like maybe the private lives of the Women's Council in the village, the one that actually runs the show because they can "hold out" on the men who run the Village Council. Or maybe the Healing Women hold female characters to a higher standard "because a woman should just know better," but to those who can meet the standards, extra good stuff comes to them.

These are all good ideas and good GMing hints. I agree strongly about "I will make you cool", an idea I picked up from reading Ron Edwards' Sorcerer & Sword. And your examples of making gender matter - without disempowering or abusing any PC - are good too. Sorry if I was over-defensive previously.

 

[S'mon]

As I said a couple posts ago, though--questions of anatomy aside, it is all cultural

But 'anatomy' here includes brain anatomy - men and women do think differently, on average, as Kim has explained. And this is not a cultural construct or a result entirely of below-the-neck differences, though both certainly influence the evolution of sex differences in our brains.

Of course even IRL there are a few very female-brained men and very male-brained women, but they're the outer tails of their respective bell curve distributions. Even in a 'masculine' role like warrior, almost every female warrior is different from the typical male warrior. The same goes for men in traditionally female roles like nurse.

Say you're a female player wanting to play a male PC. It may be you want to play an unusually feminine-minded man. But you may equally well be wanting to get in touch with your masculine side and play a macho, aggressive warrior - without being 'stereotypical'. IMO the 'stereotypical' or 'caricature' mode of play comes from a lack of internal aspect on the character, the player doesn't really identify with the character they're playing and treats them like a joke. And that can certainly be obnoxious and offensive. But IME that sort of thing is rare amongst adults with any degree of maturity. As I mentioned upthread I've seen it once, 23 years ago in a Star Wars game, and both me the GM and the player were 14 years old. AIR the other 14 year olds at the table didn't think much of that player's antics, either.

 

[S'mon]

the way drow females treat males is pretty close to a mirror image of what you'd see in a strongly patriarchal Earth society.

Not at all, I'd say - fundamental reproductive biology is too important. It's the drow females that bear the young. So there's little point maintaining a harem of cloistered males, it won't improve the reproductive success of the dominant female. Instead the males are largely expendable - eg they are still warriors, just as they would be in a patriarchy, and they are used in high-risk low-status tasks like long range patrols, so PCs often encounter patrol groups of mostly male drow, perhaps with a low-status female leader seeking to improve her place in drow society. Meawhile the high-status females are very fussy about who they mate with, they can only bear a small number of young so they choose the very best among drow males. Plus given humanoid biology they're going to be more vulnerable while heavily pregnant and in childbirth, so they may either look for a relatively trustworthy male, or else for a female subordinate/partner strong enough to protect them during this period.