males playing females and the other way around, opinions?

[Sunseeker]

This might be one reason why unless I know the DM well, I prefer to play female PCs with a female DM: I can be pretty sure she's not going to rape* my PC. Of course a good male DM wouldn't do that either, but it's easier to be sure with a female DM.

*Or otherwise disempower.

That's a good point, but seeing as this a heavily male-dominated past-time, in a lot of places that simply isn't possible.

 

[Umbran]

I very well might be, but my RP Senes have been tingling suggesting that some GMs who disapprove of males playing females, either openly or on the side, will take to making life(in game) difficult for players who play a PC of which they personally don't approve, even if the player plays it very well.

Right. So, you're assuming it, and speaking based upon that, rather than what people actually say, even if it is actively against what they say. Gotcha.

Here's a hint from a moderator (which is important enough that it is even mentioned in EN World's Rules) - don't attribute motives or thought processes to people that they don't show explicitly. Doing so is kind of rude, and tends to cheese people off, and cause arguments.

End of tangent. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[JustKim]

I am an inattentive idiot, so enlighten me. What are some of these little, subtle differences? Pick a couple and tell us what they are and how one would portray them. I'm seeing a lot of vague claims that people who play cross-gender should RP their gender somehow, and yet none of the people making these claims ever produces a specific example of what this might entail... probably because they know that as soon as they do, someone will pipe up and say, "I know some women (or men) who are nothing like that."

I'm sorry if I offended, it was really never my intention to call anybody stupid. You're asking me for broad generalizations, but that was really not what I was talking about either. I was talking about differences on an individual level. That's why it's impossible to make a list of traits that define a female character- impossible and also crass.

I think we might have different ideas of the role of biology in our lives, but, you are absolutely right that gender differences manifest culturally. That's not to say they wouldn't exist without culture. Culture and expectations shape the way we think and behave, so there is nothing wrong with using cultural cues to shape a character. There's nothing disingenuous about it either, because it's how human beings shape their own identities. So if you say "I can't think of any gender differences that don't come down to culture," I wouldn't say you're inattentive at all, I would say you're looking too hard.

When I make characters, I take cues from real people around me. If these are cultural cues, it makes no difference. I look at my male friends and I see competition under a veneer of civility, I see conflicts that get resolved instead of simmering, I see easy bonds of friendship but private worlds that are never discussed. When I work outdoors, I see men returning to work before women, taking greater risks, and offering help instead of requesting it. When I work in the office, I see women preparing, instructing, and laying the tedious footwork that must always be done. In a workplace populated by women I see seething tensions and secret alliances, in any environment.

I see women who pass by donation boxes but cringe at the idea of a stray cat suffering, men who cannot help but pretend to be experts at everything, and I see little cues that make a character. The things that make a person interesting. They don't have to be true for everyone, they just have to evoke the right kind of person.

 

[Nameless1]

*sinp*
Certainly there are some things that the player should encounter that are different, but not to the extreme that "you're so unique that everyone hates you and you have to die."

*snip* Text about raping PCs *snip*

THAT is the exact kind of path you put yourself on when, as a GM, you decide that because the PC is a woman, life needs to be harder for them. Sure, maybe it's a rude joke at first, but that doesn't really rile the player. Then it escalates, now it's public humiliation, and then suddenly, it's one night she's separated from the group and cornered by a dozen young men.

*snip*

I don't mean to sound overly harsh, but I keep seeing the shadow of "I am going to make playing difficult for male players who play female PCs" and I want to get it right out there that a mild difficulty escalates quickly and often gets out of control.

This is both the most gross mischaracterization of a post I have read in a while as well as a perfect example of a slippery slope falacy. I am not even sure that I will be able to respond in a way that will be understood.

My point is that I think that choices should be meaningful, and that when you make a choice about gender, especially if it is cross gender, then the GM should do things to make that choice meaningful. Gang raping a PC is not a good way to make their choice meaningful. How you got that from my post is a complete mystery to me.

I agree with Dausuul in that the characteristics of "female" and "male" are extremely nebulous, and as his sig states, people often act "out of character." I also think that there are interesting areas of biology, societal values, and interpersonal relationships that are fun to play out at the table. There are things that one may portray through your character's actions that will go unnoticed as being motivated by gender. Some may be obviously gender related.

I have a philosophy about gaming that I did not invent myself, but I definitely try to play by it. Players are often not able to portray the "character" of their character without help. Character is defined by how you conduct yourself in various circumstances, as well as how others react to you. So it is everyone's responsibility to bring out each other's characters, through creation of situations that will highlight features of your character, as well as portray the reactions of the rest of the world to your character's actions. This play style is often called "I will make you cool."

It goes like this. A player can state that their character is beautiful. It usually falls flat. Sure, they are beautiful. A GM can make the NPCs around the character behave as if the character is beautiful, maybe fawning, maybe jealous, maybe just extra polite. Then the character comes alive. A player can state that their character is strong. Sure, they are strong. A GM can make enemies fly away at the strikes of the character, and doors may explode into splinters at a blow from their hammer. The caracter has come alive. It is the interface of world and character that gives meaning to the choices made by players, and it is where the rubber meets the road for real role-playing.

For issues like gender, a player can state that their character is female. And it sounds like many people just forget about it after that. But a good group introduces situations that make the choice of gender matter. Like maybe the female warrior is constantly underestimated, until she kicks some major butt. Or maybe a female thief has an easier time distracting a mark because she is beautiful and winks at him. Or maybe an orc chieftain ignores the female leader of a party and speaks to the hulking but ignorant male barbarian, because maybe the orc is a mysogynist. Or maybe there are things that a male character just has no access to. Like maybe the private lives of the Women's Council in the village, the one that actually runs the show because they can "hold out" on the men who run the Village Council. Or maybe the Healing Women hold female characters to a higher standard "because a woman should just know better," but to those who can meet the standards, extra good stuff comes to them.

At any rate, gender is a choice that I feel is definitely a worthwhile area to role play to, and when your choices are made meaningful in a mature way, gender can be quite rewarding to roleplay. To bring literature into it, the Wheel of Time was made substantially better, and was an interesting example of thoughtful fantasy literature, by the introduction and exploration of gender and the use of female characters as more than the love interest. Sure, there was a lot of love interest stuff in WoT, but there were examples of strong women, as well as meaningful aspects of the story that were driven by the genders of the characters.

And like anything, in the end it is the maturity and communication between players that makes good RP possible, not the content of the RP itself.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm sorry if I offended, it was really never my intention to call anybody stupid.

Nah, I wasn't taking that as being called stupid. I was just being sarcastic and confrontational, probably more so than was warranted--and aimed as much at previous posters as at you. My apologies.

You're asking me for broad generalizations, but that was really not what I was talking about either. I was talking about differences on an individual level. That's why it's impossible to make a list of traits that define a female character- impossible and also crass.

I think we might have different ideas of the role of biology in our lives, but, you are absolutely right that gender differences manifest culturally. That's not to say they wouldn't exist without culture. Culture and expectations shape the way we think and behave, so there is nothing wrong with using cultural cues to shape a character. There's nothing disingenuous about it either, because it's how human beings shape their own identities. So if you say "I can't think of any gender differences that don't come down to culture," I wouldn't say you're inattentive at all, I would say you're looking too hard.

When I make characters, I take cues from real people around me. If these are cultural cues, it makes no difference. I look at my male friends and I see competition under a veneer of civility, I see conflicts that get resolved instead of simmering, I see easy bonds of friendship but private worlds that are never discussed. When I work outdoors, I see men returning to work before women, taking greater risks, and offering help instead of requesting it. When I work in the office, I see women preparing, instructing, and laying the tedious footwork that must always be done. In a workplace populated by women I see seething tensions and secret alliances, in any environment.

I see women who pass by donation boxes but cringe at the idea of a stray cat suffering, men who cannot help but pretend to be experts at everything, and I see little cues that make a character. The things that make a person interesting. They don't have to be true for everyone, they just have to evoke the right kind of person.

Fair enough, and I appreciate your being willing to get into specifics.

As I said a couple posts ago, though--questions of anatomy aside, it is all cultural, and in a D&D setting, there's really not enough of a culture to draw on unless the DM has gone to extraordinary lengths to depict one. The typical D&D world is a mishmash where gender norms regard female adventurers and warriors and leaders as perfectly unremarkable, yet every tavern is stocked with serving wenches in the best patriarchal tradition. It seldom stands up to close investigation.

So I don't think you can really say you're taking on a certain perspective in a world where that perspective has no basis. It's like playing a dark-skinned person in a world where there's no legacy of the slave trade or colonialism.

In a game set in the real world, or a world heavily grounded in real-world history, I would agree with you that exploring someone else's perspective is both a challenge and an interesting possibility. But in D&D? I just don't think it's there, unless your DM has gone to some lengths to put it there--in which case the cues for roleplaying originate with the DM, not the player.

(Edited to add: I don't know whether to be amused or dismayed that you and I are playing out such a perfect demonstration of what you're talking about...)

 

[Nameless1]

In a game set in the real world, or a world heavily grounded in real-world history, I would agree with you that exploring someone else's perspective is both a challenge and an interesting possibility. But in D&D? I just don't think it's there, unless your DM has gone to some lengths to put it there--in which case the cues for roleplaying originate with the DM, not the player.

Just to be contrarian, could you address the Drow?

Yes, the DM has to play to it. I hear over and over again where DMs say that they pay attention to the things that interest players, and I hear over and over again about the amazing and detailed worlds that DMs have created, but any DM that values both what the players' values and creates detailed worlds should have the effects of gender on society and the characters if they have a player that plays cross gendered PCs. That is what they are interested in, and so it should be addressed some in the world.

 

[Subtlepanic]

Often I've found it difficult to read someone's gender over a forum or MMO. When you just break it down to words and actions, many people don't wear their gender on their sleeves in real life, so why should characters have to act like they do so in RP?

 

[Dausuul]

Just to be contrarian, could you address the Drow?

Well, like I said, the typical D&D world is an incoherent mishmash--some good old-fashioned patriarchy here, some utopian egalitarianism there. And, down in the Underdark, you've got a patriarch's nightmare vision of matriarchy gone mad.

I will concede that the drow have a well-defined gender structure. In fact, you could take the position that playing your own gender as a drow is like adopting a cross-gender perspective... the way drow females treat males is pretty close to a mirror image of what you'd see in a strongly patriarchal Earth society.

 

[Rel]

Often I've found it difficult to read someone's gender over a forum or MMO. When you just break it down to words and actions, many people don't wear their gender on their sleeves in real life, so why should characters have to act like they do so in RP?

I'm a dude.

 

[jonesy]

I'm a dude.

Depending on where you live that could mean anything. I have a friend from L.A. who calls everyone dude. And she's a she. =)