males playing females and the other way around, opinions?

[JustKim]

How do you bring it up?

Going "Oh, and I'm female by the way" every ten minutes? That sounds bloody irritating, and depending how it's done (ie. with comments like "and I adjust my bra") really rather creepy.

Behaving feminine? (two of the three most feminine character's I've seen played have been male)

I'm a little concerned that some folks don't seem to really understand what makes male and female characters different. One justification for "needing" to play a female character is shamanism and traditions related to the menstrual cycle. Okay- but what about wanting to roleplay the clearly different perspective of a female character, the different problems and relationships that she has, the different imperatives and desires, the varied and nuanced differences that will make her a completely different character than her male counterpart? Is that not justifiable, or are we trying not to acknowledge that men and women are different?

How do you remind the other people at the table that your character is a woman? Through behavior, with language, in so many little ways that books have been filled with them. Being feminine is so nebulous a concept that, as evidenced by the question, we tend to apply it to the big, obvious, and mostly affected differences between women and men. You don't need to be a pretty princess or everybody's mother to be a believable female character any more than you need to be Conan or Aragorn to be a believable male character.

Just think about some of the differences you've observed, the little things, and incorporate them subtly into your character. If you can't think of any differences, I think it would serve you well both in roleplaying and in the real world to pay closer attention.

 

[S'mon]

THAT is the exact kind of path you put yourself on when, as a GM, you decide that because the PC is a woman, life needs to be harder for them. Sure, maybe it's a rude joke at first, but that doesn't really rile the player. Then it escalates, now it's public humiliation, and then suddenly, it's one night she's separated from the group and cornered by a dozen young men.

This might be one reason why unless I know the DM well, I prefer to play female PCs with a female DM: I can be pretty sure she's not going to rape* my PC. Of course a good male DM wouldn't do that either, but it's easier to be sure with a female DM.

*Or otherwise disempower.

 

[Dausuul]

How do you remind the other people at the table that your character is a woman? Through behavior, with language, in so many little ways that books have been filled with them. Being feminine is so nebulous a concept that, as evidenced by the question, we tend to apply it to the big, obvious, and mostly affected differences between women and men. You don't need to be a pretty princess or everybody's mother to be a believable female character any more than you need to be Conan or Aragorn to be a believable male character.

Just think about some of the differences you've observed, the little things, and incorporate them subtly into your character. If you can't think of any differences, I think it would serve you well both in roleplaying and in the real world to pay closer attention.

I am an inattentive idiot, so enlighten me. What are some of these little, subtle differences? Pick a couple and tell us what they are and how one would portray them. I'm seeing a lot of vague claims that people who play cross-gender should RP their gender somehow, and yet none of the people making these claims ever produces a specific example of what this might entail... probably because they know that as soon as they do, someone will pipe up and say, "I know some women (or men) who are nothing like that."

And you know what? That someone will be right, because the variation within each sex is vastly greater than the differences between sexes, and those differences are largely a product of culture anyway, and PCs are exceptional even within their imaginary cultures. Unless you're talking pure biology--and that's a subject that is generally glossed over at the gaming table--there just are no traits that can be definitively classed as "masculine" or "feminine," except in the context of culture and its expectations.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Just to make sure I'm enjoying this properly ...

Some people are arguing, "Whether the PC is a man or a woman makes no difference, so of course DMs must allow cross-gender PCs!"

And other people are arguing, "Whether the PC is male or female is so important in many ways, so of course DMs must allow cross-gender PCs!"

Right? And now the first group is calling out the second group? Cool.

Carry on.

 

[S'mon]

I am an inattentive idiot, so enlighten me. What are some of these little, subtle differences? Pick a couple and tell us what they are and how one would portray them. I'm seeing a lot of vague claims that people who play cross-gender should RP their gender somehow, and yet none of the people making these claims ever produces a specific example of what this might entail... probably because they know that as soon as they do, someone will pipe up and say, "I know some women (or men) who are nothing like that."

And you know what? That someone will be right, because the variation within each sex is vastly greater than the differences between sexes, and those differences are largely a product of culture anyway, and PCs are exceptional even within their imaginary cultures. Unless you're talking pure biology--and that's a subject that is generally glossed over at the gaming table--there just are no traits that can be definitively classed as "masculine" or "feminine," except in the context of culture and its expectations.

You say that, and yet it is not true.

 

[Dausuul]

You say that, and yet it is not true.

Still no examples.

 

[Dausuul]

Just to make sure I'm enjoying this properly ...

Some people are arguing, "Whether the PC is a man or a woman makes no difference, so of course DMs must allow cross-gender PCs!"

And other people are arguing, "Whether the PC is male or female is so important in many ways, so of course DMs must allow cross-gender PCs!"

Right? And now the first group is calling out the second group? Cool.

Carry on.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm calling out everybody who says that male and female characters need to be played in different ways. A pox on both your houses.

The people who are saying, "I don't allow cross-gender because I've had bad experiences with lesbian stripper ninjas and it's easier just to have a blanket ban?" Okay, that's a pretty good reason. I haven't had enough bad experiences to take me to that point, but I can see how other people might.

People who say, "It just creeps me out?" Well, I don't think that's as good a reason, obviously, but at least it's straightforward. You feel how you feel. Can't argue with that.

But saying that male and female characters are somehow fundamentally different and must be played differently... yeah, I just don't buy that argument, and I don't really care which side it's being deployed on. I'm tired of seeing it. I want somebody who's making it to put their* money where their mouth is and provide some specifics.

(I suppose I should add: Wanting to play a character who sees the world from a different perspective is cool, but you've got to remember that that perspective is a cultural construct. In the absence of cultural cues provided by the setting--which typically means the DM--it just doesn't mean anything. You can't play a character dealing with the issues caused by patriarchy in a world where there is no patriarchy. So until the DM gives you some patriarchy, or matriarchy, or something, there's nothing to base that perspective on. In a modern-day or historical setting, it's different.)

[size=-2]*Hey, look, singular "they!"[/size]

 

[Dausuul]

<merged into previous>

 

[Jeff Wilder]

But saying that male and female characters are somehow fundamentally different and must be played differently... yeah, I just don't buy that argument, and I don't really care which side it's being deployed on.

Do you understand why I'm amused, though?

The way I see it, there are two possibilities: (1) The male player accentuates the female gender of his PC, in whatever subtle or not-so-subtle way, so that people know he's playing a female. (2) The male player plays no difference in the PC.

In the case of (1), IME it has never failed to creep me out or offend me. In the case of (2), I see no good reason for the PC to be cross-gender.

To watch two groups of people essentially present good reasons to not allow cross-gender PCs -- to see both groups actually argue between themselves about it, while ostensibly both arguing for it -- well, it makes me laugh.

 

[Dausuul]

Do you understand why I'm amused, though?

The way I see it, there are two possibilities: (1) The male player accentuates the female gender of his PC, in whatever subtle or not-so-subtle way, so that people know he's playing a female. (2) The male player plays no difference in the PC.

In the case of (1), IME it has never failed to creep me out or offend me. In the case of (2), I see no good reason for the PC to be cross-gender.

To watch two groups of people essentially present good reasons to not allow cross-gender PCs -- to see both groups actually argue between themselves about it, while ostensibly both arguing for it -- well, it makes me laugh.

Oh yes. I see your amusement. In your place I'd probably feel the same.

Like I said, (1) looks like a perfectly legitimate argument to me. My response to (2) would be that, in the absence of people being offensive/creepy, there is no more and no less reason to forbid cross-gender PCs than there is to forbid red-haired ones.

I've never claimed there was some vast overriding reason why cross-gender RPing must be allowed. I just want to demolish what I consider fallacious arguments for why it should be forbidden. Even when, at this moment, those arguments are being used the other way.