At What Point Does PF Become Its Own System?

[Henry]

I suppose it depends on what one means by "the system". I focus on the basic d20 mechanic, along with classes (having classes, not necessarily a specific set of classes), AC, the three saves (and how they work), and other generic features.

If that were the criteria, Basic Mentzer D&D would meet three of your four, the main difference being how saves are reached. Heck, there would be more of a difference between Original D&D and Mentzer Basic, because in original there were no saves! (That I recall -- I think it was added in one of those supplement books, because I don't remember a save chart in Men, Monsters, and Magic.)

I just have to disagree on whether it matters, though, because the OGL says it doesn't - it's meant to foster incremental improvements as well as broad-stroke improvements. In fact, Paizo could one day prove Ryan Dancey a prophet in an old article where he talks about people picking up an OGL D&D if the owner of D&D makes changes too unpopular with the gamer majority. (Still need to find that article for a cite - it was part of a Q&A he did more than five years ago.)

I see where you're coming from though -- I'm guessing you see it as too close broad-mechanical-strokes-wise to be a different system. I'm seeing it as almost as different as 4E is from 3E. Would you say 4E is a different system from 3E, at least?

 

[Philosopher]

If that were the criteria, Basic Mentzer D&D would meet three of your four, the main difference being how saves are reached. Heck, there would be more of a difference between Original D&D and Mentzer Basic, because in original there were no saves! (That I recall -- I think it was added in one of those supplement books, because I don't remember a save chart in Men, Monsters, and Magic.)

I suppose I was vague in describing what I take as "the system". In part, that may be because I only have a vague idea myself. I only brought it up because it occurred to me that different notions of what the system is would impact what we're saying. FWIW, by the "basic d20 mechanic", I meant using that mechanic as a core part of action resolution, higher is always better, etc., and not just the use of d20s. And come to think of it, rather than merely having classes, I'd say that at least some of the details of how classes are handled are relevant, such as having a unified XP chart, how class is tied to BAB and saves, how multiclassing works, etc., are relevant features. So I suppose I have something in mind a little less generic than I made it appear, even if it's still not as specific . Your point is well taken, and I'd say that all versions of D&D (and OGL games) share family resemblances.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to flesh this idea out, because I actually agree with you that it doesn't matter for much. I think the OP's question is an interesting one to consider, but I don't think much, if anything, hangs on it. That's precisely why I love the OGL so much.

In fact, Paizo could one day prove Ryan Dancey a prophet in an old article where he talks about people picking up an OGL D&D if the owner of D&D makes changes too unpopular with the gamer majority. (Still need to find that article for a cite - it was part of a Q&A he did more than five years ago.)

I don't doubt you, but I'd be interested in taking a look at that article!

I see where you're coming from though -- I'm guessing you see it as too close broad-mechanical-strokes-wise to be a different system. I'm seeing it as almost as different as 4E is from 3E. Would you say 4E is a different system from 3E, at least?

I do see PFRPG as being much closer to 3e than 4e. And yes, I do think of 4e as a different system than 3e. Mind you, I think it has close resemblances, and I'm happy labeling both "D&D". What I said above about what I take to be "the system" should perhaps explain a little about why I see it that way.

 

[trickybob]

P2 will arrive one day. Paizo would be pretty silly not to divorce itself from WotC completely at some point. Probably when they have more of the 4.0 hangers on

 

[Henry]

P2 will arrive one day. Paizo would be pretty silly not to divorce itself from WotC completely at some point. Probably when they have more of the 4.0 hangers on

It'll happen, but it will be very very gradual, I would imagine. Their whole draw is because they stick to the same design sensibilities as the creators of 3E, rather than scupper it almost completely as 4E did. If they did anything revolutionary instead of evolutionary, I'm betting they'd lose a substantial chunk of their fanbase. Then again, thanks to the OGL, maybe not, because it would shorten the "return cycle" to pathfinder from variant systems launched by people who didn't like PF's theoretical diversion.