Medieval Trivia Questions

[Hussar]

Was watching a bit of TV today and my daughter (age 3) had a question for me: "Daddy, how do people in armor pee?" (ok, not an exact quote, but, close enough).

I actually don't have an answer. Anyone know? How do you pee in plate mail without winding up with rusting issues?

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

It sounds like heavily armored knights either held it, or just let loose inside the armor and let the squire clean the mess up after battle.

The Arming Squire

This job was a cross between a roadie, caterer and lavatory attendant. The arming squire looked after his knight’s every need, offering him all the comforts of home during travelling army campaigns. This meant dressing, feeding and waiting on his master, as well as taking care of all his belongings on the ‘baggage train’, trudging for miles every day before setting up camp. But the worst bit was undoubtedly cleaning the knight’s armour after a heavy day on the battlefield. On the outside there was mud and blood, but the inside was far worse. Knights didn’t get toilet breaks during battle, so the arming squire had to clean what could be described as a big, metal nappy. To add to this, water was too precious to be used for cleaning so the squire would use a mixture of sand, vinegar and a little urine to clean.

Delightful!

 

[Ed_Laprade]

It sounds like heavily armored knights either held it, or just let loose inside the armor and let the squire clean the mess up after battle.

Delightful!

Sounds right to me. Between battles most knights, unlike most FRPG PCs, didn't wear their armor unless they thought it would be needed that day.

 

[Lord Captian Tobacco]

The original Maximilian plate armor (not to be confused with its successor, the Gothic plate armor) was designed for an emperor and had to avoid that necessary inconvenience. Incorporated into the suit for convenience was a ‘hatch’, if you will, in the front for the Emperor to relieve himself. It is not certain if this addition was used in other ‘Maximilian’ style works but it was NOT included in the Gothic.

For number two, I can only guess it required a full removal or hold it and clamp down.

 

[Lord Captian Tobacco]

The original Maximilian plate armor (not to be confused with its successor, the Gothic plate armor) was designed for an emperor and had to avoid that necessary inconvenience. Incorporated into the suit for convenience was a ‘hatch’, if you will, in the front for the Emperor to relieve himself. It is not certain if this addition was used in other ‘Maximilian’ style works but it was NOT included in the Gothic.

For number two, I can only guess it required a full removal or hold it and clamp down.

Sorry about the double posting. The network has been sluggish today.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

'Maximilian' armour was the successor style to 'gothic' armour, and not the other way around.

It's not really all that difficult to relieve yourself in full plate armour as you;d think; most suits don't completely enclose the lower torso in plates. I own a custom-made harness, and it's really just a matter of lifting up the tassets and the telescoping lames of the fauld--the skirt of plates that is attached to the bottom of the breastplate/backplate assembly, untying the points of your codpiece, doing your business, then putting everything back.

 

[Cor_Malek]

Answer from a person who spent quite a lot of time inside armours, reading about armours, and helping to excavate and document several, so I can tell you where are the holes in entire problem :

1. Meh, it's easy. Pretty much the same you pee without the armour, when it's cold Most of the time crotch is easy to get to. First of all, pants looked different in medieval. Until late XIV c. it was two separate legs attached to belt over underpants (a suspender if you will ); then, when the upper wear was shorter - they made it into one piece of clothing, with a hatch in front. Plate legs used same design and didn't cover crotch. When in chainmail, well that's trickier, but it also has to be suspended in several places, so no big deal.
Aiming for a crotch in battle is so hard and so inefficient, that even if the knight is on foot, there really is no sense in doing it, hence it being so exposed was hardly ever a problem.

Number two on the other hand... Man, it's hard to st in armour. You have to hold the chainmail or else it gets in the way (lots and lots of small circles), and if you do it in woods - you also have to hold on to something. Because of the plate legs, it's hard ro roll the underpants down as well. It's a horror. Still beats what ladies in long gowns have to deal with, though.

2. Padding *. Why do people always forget about padding. Due to simple physics of energy distribution, putting a full plate or mail on yourself doesn't really do anything, you need padding underneath it. Said padding, after 40 minutes of fighting (and note, that battles in medieval usually took at least several hours) is soaking with your sweat. That's your problem with rust, not half a pint of pee The problem is bad on autumn and spring, it's a hubris in summer. It wouldn't be so bad on winter, but it was unusual and expensive to wage war when it was cold (no pasture for horses, hard to manoeuvre, and metal tends to sunder very easily (and the stuff armours was made of especially, as it had a LOT of carbon.)

3. Knights fought from their mounts. That was their thing, that was why they were so armoured. Sprinting 200m in full plate and then standing on your hands is easier than you'd think, the weight of full plate is lower than what commandos have to carry around for their 14 miles runs. But it was goddamn expensive, and special, privilege-wise.
THIS is where the pee problem lies. Ever peed from a horse? Before the battle (so when the knight would actually wear his armour) they stood ground, usually where the terrain favoured given side. And it was impossible to go for a quick one in the lue thanks to groups of lightly armoured knights from both armies who were riding as close as possible to enemy lines to lure them out (dunno the english word, "podjazd" in polish).

How they dealt with this problem? Same way snipers do nowadays

* Damn wikipedia, man. Gambeson, aketon and padded jack are three very different kinds of padded armour, not synonyms :|

 

[doctorhook]

Due to simple psychics of energy distribution,

I lol'd at this line. The word you were looking for is physics, NOT psychics.

(No hard feelings or disrespect intended. Your English is pretty damn good, except for a few wrong words here and there...)

 

[Cor_Malek]

I lol'd at this line. The word you were looking for is physics, NOT psychics.

(No hard feelings or disrespect intended. Your English is pretty damn good, except for a few wrong words here and there...)

Hehe, thanks A type-o in the worst possible fragment It happens a lot to me when I fill with english-ish words (ie recrutation instead of recruitment), but rarely with such funny effect
Mended!

 

[Dioltach]

I seem to remember a pretty horrible movie version of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (starring Sean Connery, Peter Cushing, John Rhys-Davies and Trevor Howard, in fact) in which Gawain uses a spanner to open a strategic hatch for toilet breaks.