LEB Discussion Thread '10

[CaBaNa]

AP should not be used to fey step... AP grasping shadows.

 

[KarinsDad]

The people knocked down by Icy Terrain can, after standing up, charge or use ranged attacks against anyone within range.

The charge may or may not be possible since Icy Terrain could make 1 or 2 squares between the target and the PCs difficult terrain. And ranged attacks are often possible, but for many types of creatures (i.e. non-artillery, non-controller), they either do not have a ranged attack, or their ranged attack is wimpier than their melee attacks. It might also stop the foe from using a close burst or blast if it is too far away from the PCs. But like many powers, Icy Terrain is obviously situational dependent.

I do like Icy Terrain but unlike, say, Maze of Mirrors, you can't just fire it off and know you've done something awesome.

Well, a third level power should be better than a first level power. Course, Maze of Mirrors won't ever kill or bloody a foe either.

And, there are situations where even though it hits, Maze of Mirrors does absolutely nothing worthwhile. For example, against an Artillery foe where 80% of the time (with a -4 penalty to hit), the dice outcome of his attack doesn't change (although the DM might switch to an At Will attack instead of an Encounter or Recharge one).

The awesomeness of spells like Maze of Mirrors can be a bit illusory. If you stop a Brute foe with only melee attacks from attacking for a round, it's great. If you stop an Artillery foe from moving, but don't affect the outcome of his attack at all, then even though you hit, you did no damage and you basically did not significantly affect the encounter at all. All you really did was waste your own action and that is doubly frustrating because you hit, but you did nothing.

 

[KarinsDad]

AP should not be used to fey step... AP grasping shadows.

You have to play the odds. Color Spray is close blast 5. That means that the attacked foes are within 5 squares of the Wizard. Grasping Shadows is burst 1 within 10. It only targets 9 of the 25 squares that the Color Spray targeted. A Wizard who jumps out in front in an encounter and does Color Spray and then APs Grasping Shadows is begging for multiple foes to either be Color Sprayed but not Grasping Shadows (which means they can charge the Wizard), Grasping Shadows but not Color Sprayed (which means they can charge the Wizard if within 4 squares), or not Color Sprayed and not Grasping Shadowed. Even if both spells work on some of the foes, they could still charge the Wizard if they are 10 feet away. The only foes where this strategy might be sound are minions because both of these spells hitting normal foes will typically not even bloody them.

Most Wizards (and especially Mythra at AC 17 at level 4) have low ACs. It's not that uncommon that a Wizard using the strategy you just stated with get charge attacked (at +1 to hit with a charge) by 3 or more foes in round one, even if he hit most of the time with his two spells quite a bit. And when the other PCs come up to protect him, he is still within a burst or blast range of an attack. I don't see it. I've seen too many Wizards get smoked by trying to rush out and area attack multiple foes and then get pounded on. It not only sucks up a lot of the Wizard's healing surges, but it also sucks up a lot of the Leader's healing type powers which means that other PCs have less healing resources backing them up.

Granted, this strategy might work later on in an encounter when multiple foes are bloodied and other PCs might be in a better position to protect the Wizard. But not "leading with color spray" like Luinnar posted. The gain is not worth the risk / party resource usage.

 

[evilbob]

Since this is all hypothetical there's no right nor wrong; a strategy like "leading with color spray" can be great or bad depending on the situation. If you have a heavy defender with lots of marking going right after you, for example, then it's awesome. If you're all by yourself at the front of the line immediately before the enemy's turn, well - at least they can only use basic attacks when they charge, but yeah, you're a target. It's all situational and hard to evaluate in a vacuum.

Personally, I'm also a big fan of large AoEs that carry a powerful condition like daze - hence, why I also have a wizard with color spray. The downside for me is typically more about having to work around your companions than worrying about being left alone on the front line. But I agree that's one of the more "controller-y" spells that the wizard can pick. Contrasting that with burning hands, however, shows just how bad wizard direct damage spells can be. Granted, it's a level 1 vs. a level 3 encounter, but all you get is +1d6 and lose the daze? Ugh. Boring, and frankly not that powerful compared to other classes.

 

[CaBaNa]

Charge does not increase the number of squares a creature can move after errata. "The creature moves up to its speed toward the target..." "...the creature must end the move at least 2 squares away from its start-ing position.(per compendium, see link.)

When slowed the creatures speed is 2, it can only end it's move 1 square away from it's starting position. (This can be argued, but to save time I'll concede it may be possible if you interpret the square they are in as counting as square 1. However that still discounts any creature 3 squares/15 or more feet out.)

Dazing those creatures with Color Spray also works in the wizards favor, even without Grasping Shadows. Creatures charge, all end adjacent to wizard, none can take Opportunity Actions/Immediate Actions/Flank/Grab. Wizard moves away at normal speed, Defender steps in, and is now adjacent to all those enemies. Or they are now all grouped nicely for a second round of area burst attacks.

Wizard AC isn't a problem, they add their main attack stat to it. They also get a number of other ways to pump the defense, such as staff mastery, unarmored agility... Mythra's low AC is ok, because Mythra has a higher than normal HP and surge count, thanks to that pumped up constitution.

charge attacks, are basic attacks, they do little damage comparatively and don't generally have status conditions. Taking the creatures ability to do other, nastier things, is good in the first round, it sets a tone for the encounter.

The PC's get to move around and flank, without taking opp attacks. The defender can get adjacent to all those enemies. If the leader really feels that overly taxed, Mythra can use a second wind on the following turn.

However you slice it, wizards should be using AP's to layer spells and create debilitating conditions, not fey step. Also dazed on the first round is good, even with the risk of losing HP.

Leading with Color Spray is a sound risk, the rewards are great.


Edit:
evilbob, you're correct there is no right answer here, it's all theory. Also spot on about the direct damage, it just isn't a controllers thing, half damage on a miss doesn't kill minions, and strikers do it better.

 

[KarinsDad]

Since this is all hypothetical there's no right nor wrong; a strategy like "leading with color spray" can be great or bad depending on the situation.

It can be "ok", or "bad". It's rare that it would be "great" (unless we are talking minions). The foes typically still have options with daze, even if it is just ranged attacks, area attacks, or charging.

When slowed the creatures speed is 2, it can only end it's move 1 square away from it's starting position.

Err, no. If a creature can move 2 with a Slowed charge, it's still 2 squares away from its starting position.

Mythra's low AC is ok, because Mythra has a higher than normal HP and surge count, thanks to that pumped up constitution.

In our current group:

AC 22, hit points 52, surge value 13, surges/day 11
AC 20, hit points 45, surge value 11, surges/day 11
AC 22, hit points 44, surge value 11, surges/day 8
AC 20, hit points 43, surge value 10, surges/day 10
AC 22, hit points 39, surge value 9, surges/day 8
AC 17, hit points 38, surge value 9, surges/day 9 Mythra

Hit point-wise and surge value-wise, Mythra is fine and not too far behind the rest of the team. AC-wise, he's very squishy. He's 4 lower than the average of the rest of the team. That means that he will tend to take 40% more damage from AC targeting (approximately half of all attacks) attacks over the other PCs. That also means that not only will he need more healing and use more surges to get back up to full, the odds of him being knocked unconscious are greater.

It's great that he has so many healing surges for a Wizard and he can once a day go out and have some foes target him to save on other PC's healing surges. Once a day and in a 4th or 5th encounter of the day, fine. Most encounters on round one, that's just forcing the other PCs to adjust their tactics to try to protect him after his suicide run.

The control aspect of a Wizard should hamper the foes, not hamper the action choices of his teammates.

Leading with Color Spray is a sound risk, the rewards are great.

Great? Dazing a few foes?

Sorry, but you're mistaken. Daze doesn't do enough to protect the Wizard. Sure, a Fighter might come along and help, but then again, an undazed foe could always shift away from the Fighter and still often either attack or charge the Wizard.

Let's say that the Wizard manages 3 foes and has a 60% chance to hit.

That's:

21.6% chance to hit all 3, they can all still charge.
43.2% chance to hit 2 and miss 1, 2 can still charge and 1 can do whatever.
28.8% chance to hit 1 and miss 2, 1 can still charge and 2 can do whatever.
6.4% chance to miss all 3, they can all do whatever.

Odds are, he will hit 2 foes most rounds and miss 1, and if he doesn't manage that, odds are that he will hit 0 or 1 targets. 1 encounter in 3, he hardly does anything with this but become a target (it's worse if the foes are higher level). That means that 1 encounter in 3, his teammates are forced to go "oh shoot, I gotta go protect that suicidal wizard, sigh" and are somewhat handcuffed in their own choices.

That also means that he will probably have 2 or 3 foes in his face and one of those foes will often not be dazed and that means that he will need to shift away (or teleport away) from that one foe in order to get away next round. His party will come to his rescue, so the chances of a second burst or blast from him on multiple foes is pretty slim without catching other party members.

And, this doesn't take into account other foes that were not within the blast range, but are now closer to the Wizard due to him moving to the front of the group.

Sorry, but leading with your chin is not the way to box.

Granted, there are some circumstances, like encounter #5 of the day when other PCs are low on healing surges and the Wizard has plenty where the Wizard is merely shifting healing surge resources towards himself in order to save theirs where this could be ok. It could also be good at the end of the encounter or against minions. But as a strategy for most multi-foe encounters in round one, this strategy pretty much sucks.

Note: If Mythra had an AC of 20 or higher like the other PCs, then this strategy would be a lot better. It's the AC that kills this strategy. With 5 lower than the front line types, he's just begging to get pounded on. And yes, he could use his Shield spell to get his AC up that high for that round. But, he's using up a lot of resources in round one, just for the chance to do some damage (the Daze does little) that he could probably do just as well from the back ranks.

 

[evilbob]

It can be "ok", or "bad". It's rare that it would be "great"

I still say since this is all hypothetical there's no right or wrong or good or bad - it's situational, and you have to pick what you think works best for the situation. If you still disagree that's fine, but I know I've personally seen color spray be "great" without a wizard's AC coming into play, so you can't really categorically exclude it or say a wizard's AC is too low to use it based on one hypothetical situation.

And yes, he could use his Shield spell to get his AC up that high for that round. But, he's using up a lot of resources in round one, just for the chance to do some damage (the Daze does little) that he could probably do just as well from the back ranks.

Your hypothetical situation where all the enemies charge straight at the wizard is actually the best possible time to use shield; think how many attacks you're using the bonus +4 to! Also, encounter powers are there to be used; no need to be stingy. Since most battles last less than 5 rounds, if you can use 2 or 3 encounter powers in one turn, you're probably making a huge difference. That may be more of a personal philosophy than a general rule but it has worked well in my experience.

At the end of the day this is still all theory; the best strategies will always involve adapting the tools you have to the situation at hand.

 

[FourMonos]

Wow, great discussion. I am particularly interested as my first 4th edition character I made was a wizard (and not that well built in retrospect).

The control aspect of a Wizard should hamper the foes, not hamper the action choices of his teammates.

Great? Dazing a few foes?

Sorry, but leading with your chin is not the way to box.

But, he's using up a lot of resources in round one, just for the chance to do some damage (the Daze does little) that he could probably do just as well from the back ranks.

I know I'm just picking up a few things from KD's response, but it seems the post only assesses this power from one possible, hypothetical example: that the wizard is the only one who goes before the enemies. It seems to me that, along with a lot of control powers, the use is situational. There is no substitute for thinking.

Reading through that response also gives the impression that the "daze" effect isn't that good. It limits what your enemies can do, yes? Pretty significantly in relation to some of their abilities. Isn't that what controllers aim to accomplish? Definitely can give the party an upper hand early in an encounter. As always, I appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Neurotic]

As I read it, "thinking" is most crucial in KDs argument. That tactic may be a winning combination, but only if it doesn't cost the party (or the wizard) arm and leg for future encounters.

Daze is great effect in that it limits melee enemies to charge and hopefuly they'll charge the defenders of the party or eat OAs as they try to get by. Of course, if wizard is the first one, he's out of luck.

The party should let the wizard take the lead, he can do his thing with his standard and then retreat to safety with his move.

 

[renau1g]

Daze is awesome with a rogue as well (although they also have first strike or whatever to get SA on the first round)