Dancey v. Mearls?

I didn't say I knew who was pushing the transition, just that it happened, and it happened after TSR sold the farm to WotC. Take from that what you will.

Frankly, I'm not real clear why you were so detailed in your (I guess) counter to my post. What was it you were trying to say? That 4E isn't the result of a commercialization of the brand or that it's not a pastiche of D&D as a whole?

I was pointing out that Hasbro wasn't directly the main driver when 3E D&D was first being designed and developed. Back in 1997-1998, it would have been whoever was calling the shots at WotC. Possible candidates could be Peter Adkison (CEO of WotC, before Hasbro) or Ryan Dancey (who was put in charge of reviving D&D).

What exact approach to commercialization they took for D&D back in 1998-1999, is not entirely known.

What did you mean exactly by the term "commercialization" in the context of the 2E -> 3E transition, which was absent back in the TSR days before 1997?
 

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As weird as it sounds, part of the problem is the FANS themselves.

Contrast the success of M:TG has been having lately with all the hoopla over 4e.

Many in the M:TG like on mtgsalvation attribute it to WOTC focusing AWAY from the long-time hardcore fans and making the game more "easy and fun". More cards and support for 4 and person format...

Of course, I think part of the inherent advantage of M:TG had is that its fans have ALWAYS known that their favourite cards will rotate out. They expect change on a two year basis.
 


Nobody but existing hobbyists cares about the mechanics.

False. Nobody except existing hobbyists cares enough to directly care about the mechanics. WoW blew Everquest out of the water because the mechanical underpinnings were much better.

WotC cares about them to the exclusion of other things because it no longer has a framework to support creative initiatives outside of raw game design. People want to play heroes in imaginary worlds. WotC has no idea how to make the play experience jibe with imagining heroes doing things, and no particular ability to develop worlds in which they can dwell.

False. The way you make the play experience work with imagining heroes doing things is by providing a superb play experience - and that comes from the mechanics.

It's okay though; every other company is failing in the same way. This is because online feedback and internal research hugely favours results that can be tied to an unambiguous causal chain.

No. It's because financial research hugely favours things that sell. And people only ever play in one setting at a time. Heavy development of a setting is a loss-maker. Which is one of the things that destroyed TSR.

That's what concentration on game systems provides. It's sad because development of imaginary spaces to work with from several angles was something RPG companies were good at, but they've forgotten lessons learned and even hold them in contempt.

The lessons they've learned are that you don't want to follow TSR to its grave with warehouses full of inventory worth $0.00

This also applies in electronic gaming. I've seen numerous projects go South simply because "fluff" was seen as subordinate -- a necessary evil to make a game comprehensible. Funny thing is that leading IPs do take this stuff seriously. That's why Star Wars has Leland Chee for instance -- and of course, he's doing a job based on root concepts wrangled into a universe by an RPG company. Sad to see we've lost the ability to do what we pioneered. This is especially apparent in D&D.

D&D 4e? You mean the game where the mechanics now support the fluff of everyone being larger than life rather than linear fighter, quadratic wizard? The game where wizards are no longer tied to the Vancian model? The game where you can have a fight against 20 orcs at once without it being silly?

Now the thing is that fluff made impossible by the rules is just annoying. Fluff supported by the rules is wonderful. And the two need to be written hand in hand. And in 4e they are. It's especially ironic that 4e is a better representation of Dark Sun, what with mechanics such as survival, preserving/defiling, and weapon breakage, than 2e ever was. This despite the fact that Dark Sun was supposedly written for 2e.

The hot upcoming setting for D&D is almost 20 years old.

The Nentir Vale? Check your timelines. I think you mean the hot new setting (i.e. Darksun). And you say that as if it actually means something.

I very much doubt that WoTC is unable to write settings. Because it has four damn good ones out there. (PoLand, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Athas - and Sigil come to think of it). And I am prepared to bet that one developer of D&D out of every two has their own setting which has not been published. So probably does one DM out of every two (more if you count all the contradictory Nentir Vales). And this makes publishing yet another new setting a vanity project unless it adds something to the game. The sort of vanity project that destroyed TSR (well, that, and more vanity projects like DragonDice, needlepoint, etc.) It's a vanity project because everyone wants to do one - and most people want to use their own.

So when is it good to publish a new setting? When the new setting fundamentally expands the game? With 4e first we had a barely mapped setting to explore, with a post-collapse society. So what couldn't you do there? Large benevolent organisations and large scale clashes of good against evil? Well, that's one. So the Realms becomes our second setting. So what sort of stories can't be told between those two settings? Large scale moral ambiguity, merchant houses that can bring down kingdoms, uncertain deities? Everyone slightly morally grey, and there being a price for everything? Eberron. So now what haven't we covered? A gritty setting. Post apocalyptic fantasy. Everyone is :):):):)ed. not only are there no good guys, there are few people trying to be good. And here comes Dark Sun.

What should the next setting for WoTC be? I don't know. But if they bring one out, it should be one that fundamentally expands the range of situations and stories to be told. Each setting is carefully chosen to expand the game and make the whole thing deeper and richer. And that way it is useful to all the amateur worldbuilders in the way that adding a tenth kitchen sink setting wouldn't be.

Which is a world away from the TSR-style approach you seem to be advocating. "Of course we'll publish your new setting, Jim. Bill, Fred, Joe. Work on supplements for it. Who cares if they sell?"

That said, I want a cities, towns, and villiages sourcebook if possible. (Of course I own A Magical Medaeval City Guide, so that will do). Because after 3e books like Secrets of Sarlonia or whatever the nth Realms book was, WoTC are dialling back. Not because they couldn't put more out. But because 90% of their audience aren't even in the market for Secrets of Sarlonia or The Frozen North of the Forgotten Realms. Whereas Martial Power 2 is something people might buy.
 

That may be true, but for what I was saying, it is neither here nor there. If a company puts a lot of effort into any form of development (technical or otherwise), you expect further business to try to make use of it.

And how many people care about the technical details is not a measure of how much effort should be spent on developing them.

This is an excellent point. I think an example of this is the changes to the rules related to monsters. The new mechanics treat monsters differently from players. They simplify the players use of monsters, but they ALSO streamline the monster design process, which may improve designer/develop productivity. Mechanics changes may be for the developer as well as the user
 

Not at all, but there's a difference between going forward and going back. 4E staked out a lot of bold new ground in areas like PC races (new PHB races were introduced for the first time since AD&D) and class mechanics (fighter dailies, wizard at-wills, and so forth).

If 4E were a big success, one would expect the game's continuing evolution to build on those changes. More exotic races, more fancy new classes and class powers.


Well, I would disagree that new PC races is a core new component of 4e (3e had TONS of them, including all the ones in 4e...I think your emphasis on PHB is not useful). But as for the other aspects, I don't see those as core components either. Fighter Dailies (as opposed to dailies in general)? Wizard at-wills (as opposed to all at-wills)? How are those the bold new grounds?

Not to mention, they HAVE gone further down all those roads in recent products. I think your focus on Essentials is not really representative of all their recent publications.

Instead, Essentials is retreating somewhat; dragonborn, eladrin, and tieflings have been banished from the new Red Box and the classes are reverting to something more like previous editions.

You're referring to the new stuff just put out for new players and new DMs. Why do you feel like that is more representative of current products than Dark Sun, for example?

Obviously most of these changes reflect the sensibilities of Mike Mearls, an old-school gamer who blogs about his AD&D campaign. But why was Mearls tapped to take the helm? My guess is, because 4E is regarded as... not a failed experiment necessarily, but a partial success at best; too many old customers lost and not enough new ones gained. So they're pulling back and seeing if they can recapture some of the folks who left, and maybe tap into whatever magic drove the BD&D/AD&D craze back in the 1980s.

Going after new customers, and trying to gain back some old customers, is not mutually exclusive with success. Indeed, wouldn't they want to do those things regardless of success or failure?
 
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Since when does doing well preclude wanting to do better?

Since capitalism.

You think successful companies rest on the laurels of "good enough"?

All the hellass time.

"Sir, we could sell 1% more Widgets with an investment of 1 million!"
"Oh! Great! How much extra revenue would 1% more widgets get us?"
"500,000!"
"Hmm...not really worth it. What if we also fire half of our R&D staff and make Marketing do their work?"
"Well, with that, we could get an extra 1.5 million in revenue, with or without selling more widgets."
"Awesome. Guess we just have to fire people, then. And get Marketing to look into this 'collectability' thing that I hear is hot with all the wealthy dorks out there with their iPads."

Doing better costs money, and if it costs more money than you'd get back by doing better, it's a lousy, lousy business decision.

Not that that's what's going on at WotC at all. My own little heart believes that 4e's doing fine, but part of 4e's game plan all along was to bring new and lapsed folks into the fold, and Essentials is designed primarily to do that.

I don't see Essentials as any sort of "you guys were right!", I more see it as "We've gotta get new players, and old players back in, and this might help!"
 

Since when does doing well preclude wanting to do better?
Since capitalism.

Actually, most über-capitalists- by definition doing well- want to do better. Examples: any computer/software billionaire, any oil tycoon, any land baron, etc.

However,

You think successful companies rest on the laurels of "good enough"?
All the hellass time.

This is 100% correct...to a point.

If the ROI on a project is negative, they won't invest in it...unless they get some other kind of benefit, like a gain in market share.

Similarly, a lack of vision may cause a successful company to miss an opportunity, such as when Coca-Cola passed on purchasing Pepsi...or when Jack in the Box mocked making sandwiches which were all meat and cheese with no bread a few years ago- and KFC is doing exactly that now.

But even if there is a period of stasis, it is usually accompanied by a corresponding bit of R&D that is looking for greenfield opportunities.
 

Actually, most über-capitalists- by definition doing well- want to do better. Examples: any computer/software billionaire, any oil tycoon, any land baron, etc.

Well, do better = make more money, which rarely = improve product. Usually there's more money to be gained in making the same thing, cheaper (oil tycoons skimp on safety on their offshore rigs, forex, or food companies using HFCS instead of sugar as a sweetener). But anyway, I still don't think that's happening at WotC. :)
 

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