5-foot step

[green slime]

#2) Many DMs (including me) I've seen house rule the five foot step on creature size. A Huge(tall) gets a 10 ft. step and I've even seen a 15 ft. step for Gargantuan.

We use a step-length-based-on-base: Large Creatures get 10ft, Huge 15 ft, Gargantuan 20, and Colossal 30.

Which is handy for super-sized creatures in melee...

 

[green slime]

It seems unrealistic to me, that the "mob" wouldn't surround the character in question...

But maybe it is a highly disciplined mob of Lawful Stupid characters that feel utilizing the flanking bonus is an unfair advantage.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

If you use the combat reactions system from Trailblazer, I might suggest an out-of-turn 5 ft. step as a new combat reaction. This would allow high-level characters or those with Combat Reflexes to negate the above tactic.

Not a bad idea, except this will bring back the AD&D 2nd edition and earlier play style of extreme caution spellcasters had to keep in mind on the battlefield. A lot of tactics involved keeping the squishy magic-user out of melee because if an enemy got close enough that magic-user would have serious trouble getting spells cast.

 

[green slime]

Expanding the size of a creature's "step" is a HUGE advantage for creatures with reach, practically an auto-win against wizardy types if you have the right feats once melee is reached.

I did this early in 3e and reversed it in short order, feeling that it was far too large of an advantage.

Yeah, that might be scary, if you let PC's have unlimited access to various races, spells or feats.

 

[Altissimus]

Thanks all for the various responses.

What I've taken from this is that:

a) the 5-foot rule is unrealistic but has it's place in certain situations...
b) ...situations which should not include allowing abuse by mages, because they should have a high enough concentration to be able to cast on the defensive anyway.
c) larger mobs should have a higher "x-foot" step. I like this and think I'll be implementing it.
d) faster mobs should also have a higher "x-foot" step. A high-level hasted fey monk with a base speed of 150ft (flying, perfect) should be able to "5-foot" step more than 5 foot, despite being size small.

Must...find...rules...on...simultaneous...initiative.

LOVE the charge example, radmod.

Thanks all,

A.

 

[green slime]

Thanks all for the various responses.

What I've taken from this is that:

a) the 5-foot rule is unrealistic but has it's place in certain situations...
b) ...situations which should not include allowing abuse by mages, because they should have a high enough concentration to be able to cast on the defensive anyway.
c) larger mobs should have a higher "x-foot" step. I like this and think I'll be implementing it.
d) faster mobs should also have a higher "x-foot" step. A high-level hasted fey monk with a base speed of 150ft (flying, perfect) should be able to "5-foot" step more than 5 foot, despite being size small.

Must...find...rules...on...simultaneous...initiative.

LOVE the charge example, radmod.

Thanks all,

A.

Well, you need to remember that if you prevent spellcasters from taking a 5-foot step, because "it's unrealistic", you are venturing onto dangerous ground. Everything in the game, is "unrealistic".

Low level wizards will definitely have a lot of difficulty reaching the required DC; therefore you will either see more dead wizards, or fewer players selecting to play sorcerers or wizards and even fewer clerics. I've seen even 10th level characters fail near certain Concentration checks to cast vital heals in support of fallen characters. Why force the issue? The more times the PCs roll the die, the more times they will fail. Failing =/= Fun.

? A mob isn't a creature: the suggestion was to change the 5-ft step size for a large (or larger) creature(s). Just because a mob consists of ten thousand protesters, doesn't seem reasonable to me that they should be able to make larger 5-ft steps.

I don't think allowing a 5-ft step for spellcasters is unreasonable: you have to remember, that even olympic fencers move back and forth: the opponent may select to take a step backwards, and there really isn't much you can do about it, other than 1) realise he has withdrawn, 2) then try to follow, but without opening yourself to some feint. Stepping backwards is very easy to do...

Secondly, by banning 5-ft steps for spellcasters, you also set yourself up for even more strangeness: how about the fighter stepping backwards and taking a swig of that healing potion? Just as "unrealistic". Stepping backwards to activate a wand (Just a word for a wand)?

I say, let the spellcasters have their moment in the sun. Once surrounded, or facing creatuers with reach, they are going to need their Concentration checks badly enough.

 

[Altissimus]

My house-rules for the 5-foot step now read:

1. You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. This is called a "5-foot step".
2. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.
3. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
4. You can take a 5 foot step as an immediate action out of your turn, but only in response to an opponent in melee range taking a 5-foot step, and only if you have not already taken a 5-foot step in your preceeding turn.
5. You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.
6. A given creature's 5-foot step is either 1/6th of that creature's base speed (rounded down to the nearest 5), or as determined by creature size (see rule 7) whichever is larger.
7. A colassal creature has a 20-to-30-foot step. A gargantuan creature has a 10-to-20-foot step. A Huge creature has a 10-to-15-foot step. A large creature has a 5-to-10-foot step. A medium creature has a 5-foot step. Any creature smaller than medium receives no 5-foot step unless their base speed warrants it (see rule 6). Variances due to size are due to the different nature of larger monsters, and will be applied by the DM as appropriate. A Titan, for example, can easily take a 30-foot step. A purple worm is a gargantuan beast that would only have a 10-foot step.
8. If given the above two rules your 5-foot step is less than 5-foot, you can't make a 5-foot step.
9. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
10. You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed (eg, fly, climb, swim).

This pretty much covers it for me, I think.

Cheers,

A.

 

[green slime]

My house-rules for the 5-foot step now read:

1. You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. This is called a "5-foot step".
2. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.
3. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
4. You can take a 5 foot step as an immediate action out of your turn, but only in response to an opponent in melee range taking a 5-foot step, and only if you have not already taken a 5-foot step in your preceeding turn.
   >snip<

This pretty much covers it for me, I think.

Cheers,

A.

So just to clarify: You can't take a 5-ft step the same round you have moved any distance (point 2) and (point 4):

Could you charge (60') up to someone, smack them in the face, and use your "immediate action" to follow them when they try to 5-ft step out, or not? At the moment, no, unless you had spent more than a single round toe-to-toe.

Looks pretty good IMO.

 

[Altissimus]

So just to clarify: You can't take a 5-ft step the same round you have moved any distance (point 2) and (point 4):

Could you charge (60') up to someone, smack them in the face, and use your "immediate action" to follow them when they try to 5-ft step out, or not? At the moment, no, unless you had spent more than a single round toe-to-toe.

Looks pretty good IMO.

Yeah, thanks for highlighting that and asking; it'll be sure to come up.

On thinking about it I think this is good as it stands; I like the idea of being able to respond to someone 5-foot stepping away by 5-foot stepping after them, but that assumes you've been happily chopping away at them in a nicely controlled manner for the past round...if you charge someone (or move in general), then being side-stepping with a swift 5-foot step seems much more likely to catch you unawares. This seems to work.

Thanks,

A.

 

[Persiflage]

So you're cool with denying gnomes, halfling and other small characters the ability to take a 5-ft step? That's really stitching up Small races, and for little benefit when it comes to discommoding casters, which we'll come to later.

Not only that, but for some reason you're making the rules dependent upon speed unless they're dependent on size, always to the detriment of smaller races. You're saying that a small, agile, quick-moving creature can't effectively take a step back from a slow-moving behemoth without getting clouted, even if it's on the edge of said creature's melee range. Remember, something being able to duck and weave quickly isn't related to its base speed: no housefly is ever going to beat me at a track event, but I'll be damned if I think I could hit one with a sword. Not out in the open, anyway. Unless I got it drunk first, or something.

And... are you saying that very big creatures have a minimum movement? Because that's absolutely what it looks like when you say things like "10-20' step".

And in the unlikely event that this happens...

"9. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature",

...does this...

"6. A given creature's 5-foot step is either 1/6th of that creature's base speed (rounded down to the nearest 5), or as determined by creature size (see rule 7) whichever is larger."

...apply?

Rule 7 basically says "DM fiat: I say how far a particular creature can step without taking a move action".

You could have just said that to start with and saved yourself a load of typing.

All you're doing here is biasing game balance even further in the direction of larger creatures: not only do they have crazy reach, but now they can move as far as a standard character without taking an action and without provoking attacks of opportunity. You're claiming verisimilitude, but it's actually not helping "realism" in the slightest: the bigger a creature is, the more ground it covers with a step, to be sure, but it also takes that step much slower. A 5-ft step might be simplistic, but in a turn-based combat system it is a reasonable amount of movement for something to make without provoking AoO's: a 30-ft step just isn't.

All that aside, you're about to fall heavily afoul of...

The Law of Unintended Consequences

Taking a +1 LA in order to play a size Large creature just got an order of magnitude more attractive in your campaign, not to mention what happens when Large PC's start using Expansion. And what about PC's with enormous base speeds? Monks will multiclass Barbarian and whatever-the-hell-else in order to pick up ever-increasing "step sizes".

And finally, of course, casters have the easiest recourse to both higher speeds and larger sizes, so they're going to be taking 10'-30' steps with impunity.

Oh, hang on a sec, didn't you consider it an "exploit" for casters to be able to move away five feet in order to cast? Wasn't the point of this exercise - at least in part - "not include allowing abuse by mages, because they should have a high enough concentration to be able to cast on the defensive anyway."?

Oops...

You can take a 5 foot step as an immediate action out of your turn, but only in response to an opponent in melee range taking a 5-foot step, and only if you have not already taken a 5-foot step in your preceeding turn.

So, your giant type takes a 15-ft step to the caster in order to dish up a full-attack bashing... but the (size Large or larger, or just massively-buffed-base-speed) caster gets to move away as an immediate action, without provoking an attack of opportunity. Because, you know, spellcasters really needed the powerup of free, non-AoO-provoking, immediate-action movement.

This isn't a spellcaster nerf, it's a polymorph upgrade.

Personally, I believe you might want to think this through a little more. Still, it's your game and you can absolutely do as you like