5-foot step

[irdeggman]

So a fighter can take a 5 ft step as an immediate action in order to follow with a full-attack while a wizard won't be able to "get away" in order to cast a defensive spell on himself?


You surely will end up with a lot fewer arcane casters with this set of rules.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

So you're cool with denying gnomes, halfling and other small characters the ability to take a 5-ft step? That's really stitching up Small races, and for little benefit when it comes to discommoding casters, which we'll come to later.

This. A thousand, million, infinity times THIS.

 

[Altissimus]

Wow, dude, SO MUCH angst. Glad to see your constructive style. You made one valid point; the rest was based either on a fallacy due to your inability to read, or on a serious grudge against the world that requires you to be needlessly deconstuctive even to the point of being blindly wrong.

So, here's a taste of your own style.

So you're cool with denying gnomes, halfling and other small characters the ability to take a 5-ft step? That's really stitching up Small races, and for little benefit when it comes to discommoding casters, which we'll come to later.

Your one valid point. And yes, actually, yes I am. If you're short and slow, you don't get to get out of the way as fast. Um...I'm ok with that.

You're saying that a small, agile, quick-moving creature can't effectively take a step back from a slow-moving behemoth without getting clouted

No, I'm not, because a "quick-moving creature" has a base speed of 30 or higher, doesn't it? See rule 6.

And... are you saying that very big creatures have a minimum movement? Because that's absolutely what it looks like when you say things like "10-20' step".

Ahh, ya got me again! Yes, I forgot to add (just for you) that this doesn't apply to stationery creatures, held creatures, paralyzed creatures, or bipedal creatures with a double leg amputation. But yes, other than that, I'm pretty happy about the fact that as a general rule a really, really, REALLY big creature has a minimum size move. And that's what I was going for when I said things like "10-20' step".

And in the unlikely event that this happens...

"9. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature",

...does this...

"6. A given creature's 5-foot step is either 1/6th of that creature's base speed (rounded down to the nearest 5), or as determined by creature size (see rule 7) whichever is larger."

...apply?

No, of course not. Simply in the use of logical grammatical terms, rule 9 obviously supercedes all other rules. See use of the word "any".

Rule 7 basically says "DM fiat: I say how far a particular creature can step without taking a move action".

You could have just said that to start with and saved yourself a load of typing.

Ultimately the DM decides these things, but he or she does so within guidelines. By stating the guidelines, one puts parameters on expectations. It is helpful for the players. I am sure that you can see that in some cases two given size creature may need to have different 5-foot step sizes. If you cannot see this, I suggest you re-read the illustrative examples I have already provided, cf a Purple Worm vs a Titan. It should then become...obvious.

All you're doing here is biasing game balance even further in the direction of larger creatures: not only do they have crazy reach, but now they can move as far as a standard character without taking an action and without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Yes. That's because they're large.

I'm sorry that you object to a colossal spider that weighs 125 tons and exceeds 64 feet in height having a larger 5-foot step than your gnome. However, I feel that, on behalf of colossal spiders everywhere, that someone needs to stand up for colossal spider rights, even if, while standing up for their rights, they're not actually large enough for the spider to notice.

You're claiming verisimilitude

Good word! Yes, I am.

...the bigger a creature is, the more ground it covers with a step, to be sure...

Agreed!

...but it also takes that step much slower.

Really? Says who? Have you ever seen a colossal spider move? I have (we have a VERY damp house) and I can tell you, that bugger was FAST!

A 5-ft step might be simplistic, but in a turn-based combat system it is a reasonable amount of movement for something to make without provoking AoO's: a 30-ft step just isn't.

Look, dude, you don't HAVE to go with my rules. They're MY house rules, after all. If you don't think something the size of a tower block could manage to *stumble* (let alone step) more than 5-feet, then that's your lookout. Your gnome will be safe in the knowledge that it can step 5-feet away and be quite safe - wait, don't tell me you regard reach as equally unfair to small creatures? You're not a lillputian by any chance are you?

All that aside, you're about to fall heavily afoul of...

Gosh, this is exciting!

The Law of Unintended Consequences

Gasp!

Taking a +1 LA in order to play a size Large creature just got an order of magnitude more attractive in your campaign, not to mention what happens when Large PC's start using Expansion. And what about PC's with enormous base speeds? Monks will multiclass Barbarian and whatever-the-hell-else in order to pick up ever-increasing "step sizes".

Yes, you got me. Larger, faster creatures will have higher 5-foot steps. I didn't intend for that...no...wait a goddamn-cotton-picking minute! I DID intend for that! Hence me putting in rules 6 and rules 7! Where's the unintended bit again?

Incidentally, if you review rule 6, you will see that a creature has to achieve a base speed of 60ft before their 5-foot step increases. That's pretty fast. Yes, it's achievable; but it's not worth designing a build around.

And finally, of course, casters have the easiest recourse to both higher speeds and larger sizes, so they're going to be taking 10'-30' steps with impunity.

Why would a caster want to get bigger?

Oh, hang on a sec, didn't you consider it an "exploit" for casters to be able to move away five feet in order to cast? Wasn't the point of this exercise - at least in part - "not include allowing abuse by mages, because they should have a high enough concentration to be able to cast on the defensive anyway."?

Um, yes. Are you telling me that a caster who is capable of casting spells to make him gargantuan in size and give himself an enormous base speed isn't capable of rolling a concentration check of 15+spell level?

Oops...

Where?

So, your giant type takes a 15-ft step to the caster in order to dish up a full-attack bashing... but the (size Large or larger, or just massively-buffed-base-speed) caster gets to move away as an immediate action, without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Correctly interpreted.

Again, you seem to have an issue with a very large very fast creature out-stepping a not-as-large, not-as-fast creature. You're also to extreme lengths to make your point (I can't imagine the scenario you've just suggested ever happening, especially given that the mage would still be in reach of the creature. Not to mention if the mage was stupid enough to BE in melee range of a very, very large creature, it probably wasn't an intelligent enough mage to cast the buff spells in the first place.)

Because, you know, spellcasters really needed the powerup of free, non-AoO-provoking, immediate-action movement.

Yes, I'm sure you're right, and that these rules will most benefit mages of all people. No, hang on...

This isn't a spellcaster nerf, it's a polymorph upgrade.

What? It was never designed to be a spellcaster nerf.

Personally, I believe you might want to think this through a little more. Still, it's your game and you can absolutely do as you like

So what was the point of your post again?

 

[Altissimus]

This. A thousand, million, infinity times THIS.

SRD small size: "A character or monster is considered Small when he, she or it stands 2 to 4 feet tall while weighing 8 to 60 lb."

How does a creature with legs 1-2 feet in length make a 5-foot step anyway?

Even if they could do the splits, the best they could manage is 4-feet.

Perhaps they should have to make a jump check to make a 5-foot "step"....

 

[Dandu]

How fortunate that, in a world where the enemy can both step further and keep up with your movement, a caster can still cast defensively.

 

[Umbran]

Wow, dude, SO MUCH angst. Glad to see your constructive style. You made one valid point; the rest was based either on a fallacy due to your inability to read, or on a serious grudge against the world that requires you to be needlessly deconstuctive even to the point of being blindly wrong.

Altissimus, welcome to EN World.

You're fairly new here, so please allow me to take a moment to remind you of The Rules. In general, our rules can be very broadly summarized as, "Don't be a jerk." We expect you to show respect to other posters, no matter what you think of them or their positions. We ask you not direct your comments to the content of positions, rather than to the person of the poster.

Being insulting (like suggesting people cannot read), or other ad hominem stuff, is pretty much right out. Leaning towards the snide is common on the internet, and I suppose some folks think that it makes you seem cool, but we strongly discourage it around here.

If you've got questions on our policies, or about any specific instance of moderation, we encourage you to take it to e-mail or Private Message with the moderator or admin of your choice.

Thanks for your attention. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

~Umbran, EN World Moderator

 

[Altissimus]

....right.

And where's Persiflage's warning? Man, if you'd jumped in there with all that red ink on him, then I wouldn't have bothered.

How is my post any more "snide" than his?

I started this thread with a perfectly open and genuine question and discussion, and up until Persiflage had his turn I was continuing quite happily in that vein.

Is there some reason you're targeting this at me, rather than at him?

At least I put a little humour in mine, rather than his style of just being totally deconstructive.

Feeling totally picked on here. Welcome to the boards indeed. Short visit, methinks.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

SRD small size: "A character or monster is considered Small when he, she or it stands 2 to 4 feet tall while weighing 8 to 60 lb."

How does a creature with legs 1-2 feet in length make a 5-foot step anyway?

Even if they could do the splits, the best they could manage is 4-feet.

Perhaps they should have to make a jump check to make a 5-foot "step"....

And the other side of it: If you are so friggin big that you take up a 20 ft square on the game board and yet still only have speed 30 or 40...you DESERVE to be limited to a 5 ft step, because you're clearly extremely slow or clumsy for your size. But in your rules, size automatically grants a bonus.

And a 5 ft step isn't necessarily one step. It's a shift to another square done safely, it can be lots of things.

But whatever, if you don't want small race PCs in your game, your call. They already suck pretty hard in melee, you're just making them officially un-playable.

 

[Altissimus]

And the other side of it: If you are so friggin big that you take up a 20 ft square on the game board and yet still only have speed 30 or 40...you DESERVE to be limited to a 5 ft step, because you're clearly extremely slow or clumsy for your size. But in your rules, size automatically grants a bonus.

And a 5 ft step isn't necessarily one step. It's a shift to another square done safely, it can be lots of things.

But whatever, if you don't want small race PCs in your game, your call. They already suck pretty hard in melee, you're just making them officially un-playable.

I'm afraid I don't see the logic on this. Even a slow, clumsy creature you would expect could move his own bulk with one step (purple worms aside, perhaps - which is why it depends on the creature type). But assume it's a normal gargantuan bipedal with a base speed of 30, say. If it covers a 20x20foot square, would you not expect it to be able to move it's own bulk a good distance towards covering *another* 20x20 foot square? Or at least half way there? Whereas, in your argument, a small creature in a 5x5 foot square can easily move his *entire* body to *another* 5x5 square. Is this not inconsistent?

I take your point that it does penalise small creatures. I also take your point that they are less effective in melee. While it seems that many people on this thread seem to be picking on everything I'm suggesting, unfortunately I can't be blamed for the melee ineffectiveness of small creatures. Take that up with your DM, or re-roll an ogre.

 

[Deset Gled]

How is my post any more "snide" than his?

...

At least I put a little humour in mine, rather than his style of just being totally deconstructive.

I think you answered your own question.

Comments that you made for the purpose of "humour" are range from ad hominem attacks (i.e. "your inability to read") to just rude ("So what was the point of your post again?"). OTOH, Persiflage's comments are deconstructive of the house rules you posted, not you. Deconstructing rules is generally the purpose of this board.

Also, FYI, another key rule here is to not call out the mods. If you feel you're being unjustly attacked, you should contact them in private.

But assume it's a normal gargantuan bipedal with a base speed of 30, say. If it covers a 20x20foot square, would you not expect it to be able to move it's own bulk a good distance towards covering *another* 20x20 foot square? Or at least half way there? Whereas, in your argument, a small creature in a 5x5 foot square can easily move his *entire* body to *another* 5x5 square. Is this not inconsistent?

It's not as inconsistent as you think if you consider that a 5ft step should take the same amount of time for a small creature as it does a large one (because the action takes up the same amount of time in combat). Your interpretation is that a 20x20ft creature should make a step at a speed four times faster than a creature taking up a 5x5ft square. But, as you noted, the movement speed of the creatures is the same.

It might make sense to argue that a 5ft step size should increase with base speed, but that's not what you're arguing for here.