Thoughts on Distance

[steeldragons]

As a general rule, how far would you say OUTSIDE of a fortified settlement (say a small walled city) would be safe? As a general rule I used to think if you were within a day's travel you were considered "within the borders" of the city/state/castle's holdings...but then, it seems, if you need to spend 8 or 10 or 12 hours getting to the city to get help for something...your homestead would pretty much be toast by the time you got back to it...

So, how far/long outside of a city/castle wall would you constitute (generally) a "safe zone" before the farms and/or immediate "suburbs" begin to thin out and you're in "the wilds"? (Note that I obviously, these wilds could still be considered within the holding of the local lord. But they wouldn't be inhabited -by humans- or frequented areas)

On a related topic, how far can an average party march (in miles, please) within a single day of travel? How far if mounted (on horses, that is. Nothing fancy or flying)? I'm sure there are tables on this, but without access to my books, figure someone here would have that info off the top of their head (or at their fingertips).

Cheers. Thanks.
--Steel Dragons

 

[the Jester]

Wow, this is a HUGE "It depends".

If you're in a very civilized, well-patrolled area, you might be safe all across the entire country.

If you're leaving a keep on the borderlands, you might not be safe once you're 100 yards away.

Really, the surrounding environment is key here- how close can bad guys hide? Do they resemble the normal wildlife enough that they don't stand out in the distance? How organized is it? How thick is the 'civilized' population? How far to the nearest 'monstrous' lair or city?

IDHMBIFOM but wilderness travel varies greatly depending on the terrain; on a road, 30 miles per day is not unreasonable for a party that's neither too large nor too encumbered.

 

[steeldragons]

I know...there are a lot of variables. Let me paint the picture...

I'm thinking an independent city at the edge of a conglomeration of city-states. To the south is part of this conglomeration but "safe" areas are only within a certain radius of the city and the areas in between are kind of "on their own." To the north is an expanse of plains claimed by no civilized nation. So the radius of protection is rather important in all directions.

It is a city built up over the centuries around a castle, fairly well used port and trade activity.

(From the Orea Gazeteer I'm working on...)
Hawkview: avg. pop.: 11,000
a) ruled by his lordship, Coren Riorn, Lord of Castle Hawkview. He is a descendant of the Riorn family of thanes from the days when Mostrial stretched across the Freelands.
b) Small port city doing much trade with R’Hath to/from Thelitia and the Freelands. The city is also one of the only places in Orea that offers elf goods direct from the Miralosta realm. For its own resources, the region surrounding Hawkview is rich farmlands and orchards (trading in several fruits not grown elsewhere) and mining (iron and platinum).

The city is prosperous and fairly well patrolled and protected. The lord is very happy with his city's prosperity and doesn't want anything infringing or impeding that. But, and this goes to the question I suppose, how far out it is patrolled I hadn't really thought.

I'm thinking, off the top of my head, however many miles a mounted force could ride out in the morning and make it back before dark...but then there would have to be some (less) overnight patrols, I'm sure...

So I'm wondering how far out those farmlands would be considered "too close" to harass by you average goblinoid force (without some bigger bad pushing them to do it). Again, variables...orcs, of course, are more ferocious and daring than goblins or kobolds would be, for example. But I'm just looking for a ballpark figure.

--SD
PS: Thanks for the marching distance.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

I know...there are a lot of variables. Let me paint the picture...

I'm thinking an independent city at the edge of a conglomeration of city-states. To the south is part of this conglomeration but "safe" areas are only within a certain radius of the city and the areas in between are kind of "on their own." To the north is an expanse of plains claimed by no civilized nation. So the radius of protection is rather important in all directions.

It is a city built up over the centuries around a castle, fairly well used port and trade activity.

(From the Orea Gazeteer I'm working on...)
Hawkview: avg. pop.: 11,000
a) ruled by his lordship, Coren Riorn, Lord of Castle Hawkview. He is a descendant of the Riorn family of thanes from the days when Mostrial stretched across the Freelands.
b) Small port city doing much trade with R’Hath to/from Thelitia and the Freelands. The city is also one of the only places in Orea that offers elf goods direct from the Miralosta realm. For its own resources, the region surrounding Hawkview is rich farmlands and orchards (trading in several fruits not grown elsewhere) and mining (iron and platinum).

The city is prosperous and fairly well patrolled and protected. The lord is very happy with his city's prosperity and doesn't want anything infringing or impeding that. But, and this goes to the question I suppose, how far out it is patrolled I hadn't really thought.

I'm thinking, off the top of my head, however many miles a mounted force could ride out in the morning and make it back before dark...but then there would have to be some (less) overnight patrols, I'm sure...

So I'm wondering how far out those farmlands would be considered "too close" to harass by you average goblinoid force (without some bigger bad pushing them to do it). Again, variables...orcs, of course, are more ferocious and daring than goblins or kobolds would be, for example. But I'm just looking for a ballpark figure.

--SD
PS: Thanks for the marching distance.

I'd say 5-10 miles. The patrols probably aren't just riding out and then riding back in a straight line. With mostly plains I'd go with the higher figure. But that's just an opinion off the top of my head.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It still very much depends, traditionally in places that have poor security from marauders people live in fortified villages (which may or may not have a castle associated - mostly not) and its pretty secure in sight of the village walls and less so away. If the area is well patrolled then it can be pretty ok in day time but at night all bets are off.

Well traveled trade routes will have safe refuges (villages/Fortresses/Fortified inns (caravansari)) at about a day interval. The day being specified by the local pack animal.

Really dangerous area will not have any permanent residents at all unless a major local power has invested in a major fortress in the region.

Often in really dangerous area settlements will be in areas very difficult it besiege; like islands in the middle of a lake. Alpine valleys with only one easily defendable entrance (think Helm's Deep from the books).

 

[Jacob Marley]

I'd say 5-10 miles. The patrols probably aren't just riding out and then riding back in a straight line. With mostly plains I'd go with the higher figure. But that's just an opinion off the top of my head.

Agreed. 5-10 miles, depending on terrain, sounds about right. If these smaller, outlying hamlets were also garrisoned with troops I could see there being a couple more miles of safety. If Rangers were patrolling beyond that, I could see another couple of miles of safety.

 

[karlindel]

As has been mentioned, it depends on the terrain they will be travelling through, as well as the level of danger in the surrounding areas. It's more likely to be an odd shape than a radius, really (as there will be safe areas farther away if they are closure to roads). Also, it's not going to be a clear demarcation.

From a quick search online, orses can walk about 3-4 mph, trot 8-10 mph, canter/lop 10-17 mph, and gallop 30-40 mph (varies widely depending on hte horse). The Pony Express averaged 9 mph. That is without an Elf with the feat that increases traveling speed, or magical assistance of some kind (such as the ritual Traveler's Chant).

Farmland close to the city should be very safe, as most attackers are not going to pass up the outer settlements to get into the nearer ones, and that is going to make it easier to focus protection on the outer areas. Also, it sounds like the city might be large enough to keep an outpost or two (or at least a few watchtowers) just beyond the near farmlands to help keep the outlying farms safer. A few men on fast horses signalled by a watchtower who started in town could get to a farm 10 miles away from town in about an hour moving at a trot. If the men were stationed at an outpost 5 miles out of town, they can make it in less than half an hour.

I would say that within a mile or two of town should be almost completely safe, 3-5 miles should be low risk, 6-10 miles should be risky, and 10-15 miles should be borderlands territory where the guards will do what they can, but will often come by after the main attack is over (i.e. if the attackers were successful the guards will try to stop them from moving on to the closer farms or warn the city if they can't, if the attackers were unsuccessful the guards will try to track them down and finish them off to make sure they don't come back). Expand those numbers slightly if moving towards relatively civilized country, cut them down a bit when moving towards empty or monster-infested areas. Also diminish them as you go farther from the road (i.e. a mile into the woods is equivalent to 2-4 miles of road, because it drastically reduces speed).

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I'd say 5-10 miles. The patrols probably aren't just riding out and then riding back in a straight line. With mostly plains I'd go with the higher figure. But that's just an opinion off the top of my head.

Not sure if a simple figure like this has nay meaning. It really depends on the nature of the threat.
For instance is the threat hunter gather nomads, pastoral nomads or beings that practice agriculture.
Do they have mounts? and if do what kind of distance can a mounted raiding force cover in a day. How far away is their secure bases?

Take hunter gathers, typically they require huge areas to support them selves and migrate over this range. Unsually in fairly small groups. They can gather into larger groups to make war but these large groups cannot maintain themselves in the field for long because they hunt out the local food sources too quicky and they can only be assembled when game is plentiful.

To a settles population with good military organisation then the threat they present is seasonal since that is the only time the nomads can gather in enough force to overwhelm the local militia.

Now that is just in the real world, now add in magic and portal travel and so forth.

Perhap there is in the High Forrest a portal to the Far Realm that opens when the stars are aligned and spew forth elderich horrors that prey on good folk. So most of they year you can go about you business safely and then you see a lot of stuff with tentacles and too many teeth.

 

[Celebrim]

As a general rule, how far would you say OUTSIDE of a fortified settlement (say a small walled city) would be safe?

I don't usually bother to be exact about it, but as some rules of thumb

A hamlet commands an area 1 mile around it.
A village commands an area 4 miles around it.
By virtue of being a hub for villages, a town commands an area 8 miles around it.
By virtue of being a hub for towns, a city commands an area about 20 miles around it.
Chains of towns form 'civilized lands' where the chief dangers are property crimes and not things wanting to eat you.

That doesn't mean that the area will be perfectly safe, but it does mean that as long as the inhabitants don't foolishly poke there noses in the few spots that they know they shouldn't, they don't face daily danger or hazard. These 'spots of known hazard' are usually haunts of ghosts or faeries or decrepid mini dungeons where oozes, fungi, and abandoned constructs might be found. To avoid detection, bandits (human or otherwise) often lair in or near these places, knowing that the locals will be loathe to look there. Sometimes, this proves more hazardous than the law.

Areas of wilderness are scattered in pockets in most civilized lands, where there is simply not enough population nearby to exert control over the territory. Any wood over about 1000 acres is considered by the locals to be quite scary and unpleasant, and often there is a good reason for that. Faeries, spirits, almost always still dwell in such forests, and fell beasts may lair deep in woods of that sort, especially if 'corridors' exist that allow it to move from one wood to adjacent one without regularly encountering the civilized inhabitants.

I do not assume a 'keep on the borderlands' is a good place for low level heroes. I don't generally set adventures in the 'borderlands' until the PC's are at least 3rd or 4th level.

I generally assume 20 miles of travel as a rough rule, provided the terrain is suited to it.

 

[steeldragons]

Thanks to all for the replies. There's some really good stuff here.

Anyone else? Keep 'em coming.

--SD