"Reverse Dungeon" experiences?

[Rel]

It'll be a while before I'm regularly GMing again but I'm considering doing a "Reverse Dungeon" type of thing where the PC's are the Bad Guys and they are motivated (internally or externally) to establish a Lair of some kind from which to launch attacks on the Kingdom of Good Guys. The last time we did something like this was over 15 years ago and it failed pretty spectacularly due to each of us (I was a player in that campaign) taking the opportunity to play an evil character as being completely selfish and not working together as a party very well. Also we had no particular allegiances or ties outside the party and so whenever we encountered a situation that was difficult, we'd just pack up and go someplace else. We've all apologized to our GM countless times for this since.

I feel pretty confident that we'd matured a tad since our early 20's and I believe I can overcome the problems we experiences with this scenario the last time. I'm curious as to whether the fine folk of ENWorld have experiences or ideas they might share about this concept.

 

[xipetotec]

I can't offer advice, I just love the idea of running a "Dungeon Keeper" scenario! Good luck and let us know how it goes!!

 

[FreeXenon]

I would love something like this too!

If your players are mature... I think you will have a blast.
It will may require a different sort of problem solving skill set.

Tradition PC tactics are like small unit tactics taking on a larger and more well funded organization.

Whereas, in this new case, the PC's will be part or in charge of of a larger and well funded organization. They will have many more options...

Possibly skill challenges for blackmail or for thwarting the "good" forces..

Lots of potential yummyness.

If you do end up doing this please keep us informed of how it progresses

 

[Rel]

Which system to use has been part of my wondering. At the moment I'm leaning toward Old School Hack. It's been something I've been excited about recently and has some features I think would work well for the game I'm considering.

Notably the combat system is very fast and light on rules while maintaining a lot of interesting tactical options. Also it handles monster creation very elegantly and easily, which I think will be key if the PC's want to recruit monsters to guard their lair in some fashion.

I think that this kind of setup offers a wide variety of potential types of adventure, not limited to "defend the lair" all the time. I'd figure that among the early sessions would be the one where the PC's have to clear out the first portion of the lair so they can occupy it. If I use a "traditional" dungeon setup then they may end up defending the lair from below as well as outside. There could be sessions where they have to raid nearby settlements for food/slaves/treasure/etc. And there could be spy missions into town or raids on the King's guard outposts.

Anyway, right now I'm just brainstorming a little and am interested to hear any further ideas from ENWorld.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A while back I ran a GURPS urban fantasy campaign set in Tredroy that was kind of like this. There were several different gang factions at war and the PC's joined forces with one of them working their way up from being cheap thugs to highly valued enforcers. After a while the PC's were more or less "stationed" at a brothel owned by the gang and responsible for protecting it from other gangs along with their other missions.

The PC's got to play "bad guys" and the opposition were other gangs, corrupt officials, and the like so there were very few actual "good guys" to worry about.

 

[El Mahdi]

Maturity definitely helps, but problems can still arise...

I'd recomend at character creation, that along with actually rolling up characters, the group has to sit down and determine reasons why they are working together (even if their alignments or obvious goals are in competition with eachother). Have each player come up with a reason why they are working with at least two of the other player characters (some kind of familial or family connection, a common goal or purpose, a shared boss/overlord, etc.). Also, set up ground rules for what they are allowed to do intraparty wise (such as: No Killing Eachother, No Stealing Eachothers Stuff, etc.). Remind them that they are working together, even if only temporarily, for a reason (the forces of good are too powerful for them individually, they each have abilities that the group needs, etc.). United they Succeed, Divided they Fall!

And remember: Evil will always Win, because Good is Dumb!



As for the adventure itself, perhaps pick an adventure you enjoyed DM'ing, present the premise to the players as their goal/situation, and develop from there. Like for instance, let the players run Red Hand of Doom from the bad guys perspective, and see if they can be successful against those problematic adventurers.

 

[Rel]

A while back I ran a GURPS urban fantasy campaign set in Tredroy that was kind of like this. There were several different gang factions at war and the PC's joined forces with one of them working their way up from being cheap thugs to highly valued enforcers. After a while the PC's were more or less "stationed" at a brothel owned by the gang and responsible for protecting it from other gangs along with their other missions.

The PC's got to play "bad guys" and the opposition were other gangs, corrupt officials, and the like so there were very few actual "good guys" to worry about.

That reminds me that I did run a sort of "bad guys" campaign a long time ago. It was at a time when most of the group was otherwise occupied having babies and I had only two players. So we did a thing where they were an Assassin and Cat Burglar respectively who were working their way up through a criminal organization. It was kind of a cool setting too with this empire in the desert falling into decay and maintaining control by keeping a firm grip on the water supply.

 

[Diamond Cross]

There was only the one time we played it. And it basically became a game of "let's see what I can steal from my fellow player character" evening before people got up in arms and never played that particular way again.

Basically, this kind of thing can only be pulled off if you have mature players, otherwise it will eventually turn in on the group. Because that's what evil always does, is eventually turns on one another.

 

[kiznit]

Which system to use has been part of my wondering. At the moment I'm leaning toward Old School Hack. It's been something I've been excited about recently and has some features I think would work well for the game I'm considering.

Notably the combat system is very fast and light on rules while maintaining a lot of interesting tactical options. Also it handles monster creation very elegantly and easily, which I think will be key if the PC's want to recruit monsters to guard their lair in some fashion.

The Arena system allows for some pretty cool "Make Your Own Lair" possibilities for trapping unfortunate Adventurers.

It'd be cool to have a whole scene where the players set up parts of their dungeon, a la the battle prep scene from Conan, and get to draw their own map of Arena types with various if-then notations for cool traps.

 

[Umbran]

I'm curious as to whether the fine folk of ENWorld have experiences or ideas they might share about this concept.

Here's a thought, to help with stabilizing the situation against party strife: The dungeon is actually a lair of some Major Power. To start with, the characters a low-level peons in the scheme of things. They may be jockeying for position, but the Major Power has a vested interest in things in the lair working together.

Eventually, of course, we expect the PCs to either move off and establish their own lair, or to overthrow and replace the Major Power.