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Pathfinder 1E give me a reason to like Pathfinder

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1. I really enjoyed the Adventure Paths that Paizo put out, but after Legacy of Fire when they went all full into Pathfinder, I avoided buying any more. I wanted things that were completely compatible with 3.5 at that time, and if it were built more for Pathfinder rather than 3.5, I was unsure of whether the module would be overpowered for 3.5 characters or not.

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2. or if Paizo just fed a bait, hook, line and sinker in order to draw people in to buy their books without doing anything or not.

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3. So, I asked here. There are some things that I like about what I've seen about PF...but my core questions that may turn me off about it are what I am asking about.

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4. Of course if the attitude of telling some one requesting info is to tell them to kiss off is indicative of those playing PF in the first place...well...

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5. So...as I said, give me a reason to like Pathfinder...aka...more to the point...give me reasons to like Pathfinder by addressing the questions I had or reasoning why they are not as relavant as I would think they are.

Regadring your post:
1. These kind of comments are what had me wondering why you wanted to be sold. Since backwards compatability was a design goal AND given your lengthy list of possible issues, it seemed odd you'd drop the APs b/c they shifted to Pathfinder. Checking out the 1st issue of the PF-rules AP would give you a comparison point at least.

2. This kind of comment is a pretty good example of the comments that made me ask "why do you want to be sold?". I was asking b/c comments sometimes read differently that they'd be interpreted when spoken (happens to me frequently, I'm afraid).

3. And several people have addressed those questions.

4. ...well.. what? No one told you to kiss off. Your list was specific but had a lot of erroneous perceptions/assumptions. Your entire first post reads as an adversarial "convince me... if you can" post. At least that's the impression I was left with, thus my "why do you want to be sold" line of questioning (as with #2).

5. As stated for #3, several people painstakingly addressed your points. The PDF is $10. I'm not telling you how to spend your money but $10 is a pretty low investment if you're looking to do a detailed assessment to your satisfaction.

Final thought - the Pathfinder Core Rulebook isn't a players manual: it's a combination players handbook & gamemaster book. Pretty good bang for the buck if you ask me. Oh, and did I mention the PDF is $10?
 

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Regadring your post:
1. These kind of comments are what had me wondering why you wanted to be sold. Since backwards compatability was a design goal AND given your lengthy list of possible issues, it seemed odd you'd drop the APs b/c they shifted to Pathfinder. Checking out the 1st issue of the PF-rules AP would give you a comparison point at least.

2. This kind of comment is a pretty good example of the comments that made me ask "why do you want to be sold?". I was asking b/c comments sometimes read differently that they'd be interpreted when spoken (happens to me frequently, I'm afraid).

3. And several people have addressed those questions.

4. ...well.. what? No one told you to kiss off. Your list was specific but had a lot of erroneous perceptions/assumptions. Your entire first post reads as an adversarial "convince me... if you can" post. At least that's the impression I was left with, thus my "why do you want to be sold" line of questioning (as with #2).

5. As stated for #3, several people painstakingly addressed your points. The PDF is $10. I'm not telling you how to spend your money but $10 is a pretty low investment if you're looking to do a detailed assessment to your satisfaction.

Final thought - the Pathfinder Core Rulebook isn't a players manual: it's a combination players handbook & gamemaster book. Pretty good bang for the buck if you ask me. Oh, and did I mention the PDF is $10?

Short answers.

I don't buy PDF's online. I buy hardcovers, and normally from a local FGLS or a bookstore.

I didn't find the exact answers before this posting precisely to all the questions overall, except typically from people who were anti-PF or arguments between them which to me is NOT a reliable source.

People like you should NOT dissuade me...but MAN...you are demoralizing. I have to remind myself that if I get it, I will be playing with my own group. Please, if someone else comes inquiring about PF and looking for answers and help in deciding...maybe you should hold off from answering unless your aim IS TO dissuade them. Trying to weigh the good that some have posted in relation to you and it's surprising to me just what an effect you had on me. IT's stupid for me to have one person affect me in a representation of the players of a game...but really...WOW.

I guess attitudes can drive others away, even if they try to NOT let them. Makes me wonder if I or others when we've argued in favor of older editions, 3e vs. 3.5 (all that time ago), or 4e, if sometimes I or others have done more harm to those looking at the system or not.

Sorry if it came off snarky in my posts, but I was just looking for information and answers. I was as specific as I could be. I'm not a big poster (If you hadn't noticed from how long I've been registered to how many posts I make), but long time player. Various comments on the APG and how well PF got me curious enough to decide to investigate...and anyways...Your posts just blow me over. I AM grateful to all those who took the time for their lengthy posts and answers to my questions...I'm still amazed at my own reaction to two solitary posts though. I don't think I've ever been hit with something that makes me just want to back out that fast before...despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary...and anyways...instead of going on about the accusatory nature of those few posts instead of the good nature and informative items of all the others....I'll just stop here and stop typing.
 

People like you should NOT dissuade me...but MAN...you are demoralizing. I have to remind myself that if I get it, I will be playing with my own group. Please, if someone else comes inquiring about PF and looking for answers and help in deciding...maybe you should hold off from answering unless your aim IS TO dissuade them. Trying to weigh the good that some have posted in relation to you and it's surprising to me just what an effect you had on me. IT's stupid for me to have one person affect me in a representation of the players of a game...but really...WOW.

As for Pathfinder & my responses:
I'm not sure how we arrived here but for what it's worth, I've responded to dozens of threads asking "Why Pathfinder?". I've never encountered a response to my feedback such as yours before.

In my first post, I was trying to identify the aim of the post: were you a player, looking to GM, just looking to try something new or dissatisified with your current game/campaign. I was sincere in pointing out that the PDF was $10 bucks. I didn't have time when I read your post to go through it point-by-point as others did and I thought perhaps you were unaware of the PDF and it's low price.

In my 2nd post, I was trying to explain why I responded as I did in my first reply as you apparently took offense to it. At no time, did I tell you to "kiss off" and after reading my posts multiple times, I'm still at a loss as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

I'm also a bit surprised that a gamer you've never met and will not be sitting at your table influences your opinion of a game to the degree that you'd categorize an entire customer base according to your perception of that individual. It's not like I'm a Paizo employee. Would you not buy a car b/c someone you don't like might buy from the same manufacturer?


Separate from my posts or Pathfinder & in reference to the quoted text:
You've taken me task for asking a question & categorizing it as an attack. I've tried to clarify the intent behind my question, provide information that you might find useful, and attempted to ensure you were aware that no insult was intended.

Given the text I've quoted from your post, are you honestly telling me phrases like "People like you" aren't inflammatory/insulting?

I've read and reread my posts. I don't see the malice you're attributing to me when I read them. However, you clearly feel that I've slighted you in some way. If you don't like the questions I asked or the advice I gave, then I'm sincerely sorry that I wasted your time.
 
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No offence intended, but I just don't understand why you want to torture yourself over such complicated notions.

Just find a group of buddies to try it with, and enjoy yourself already !
 

First...everyone can be everything. You have an undead revenant who sold his soul to Baal for revenge and became a half vampire...no problem...he can also be a Paladin.......
I'm not sure what a half-vampire is, but an undead revenant who sold his soul to Baal for revenge doesn't sound LG. Perhaps this character could be a fallen Paladin, but not a Paladin by the rules.

That type of thing sort of turns me off. In the DMG it lists the option to have core races that are limited (DM fiat) to certain classes. Maybe the players won't like it, or maybe they will...but there are actual optionary ideas for which races would qualify or at least favor which classes.
Pathfinder focuses on the core races for players. Even the Advanced Players Guide didn't introduce new player races. However the final decision on allowed races for a game is in the GMs hands. It's not really something that has to be codified in a core rules book.


In addition the favored class idea, where you can have XP penalties negated if you are in a specific class...but if you're race doesn't have it...then you get the full weight of an XP penalty if your classes are too far apart in levels.

It appears that Pathfinder doesn't have these options...which leads to number 2...

I didn't like class level dipping. I take 1 level of fighter...than 1 level of Druid, then 2 levels of Weapon Master...etc.
The Experience Penalty thing isn't in the Pathfinder rules, but the classes now have many more advantages for staying within a single class so players are less likely to dip into many classes. There are no dead class levels like you saw in 3.0/3.5.

The third item was the I want to be a monster syndrome. Everyone could be any monster they want...and of course the townsfolk will respond as if they were normal. Of course that made no sense to me...and I could always stick by the core races in the PHB...with a few optional as listed in the DMG if I wanted. Stats were listed in other books (savage species, MM's later on), but those were really optional, with the Core races being what was considered official and what a DM could use as an optional ruling to back himself up if nothing else.

What or where in Pathfinder does it say Monster PC's are NOT the norm but the odd and rare exception?
I don't exactly see where Pathfinder encourages players to play monsters more than in 3.0/3.5 or 4E. Are you looking for a statement that says "Thou shalt not play anything but races x, y and z"? I don't think that should really be necessary, but the focus in PF is clearly on the core races.

I would say that the player race issue is really more of a campaign setting thing. Let's say someone wanted to use Pathfinder to run a Planescape game. In that case you'd expect some greater leeway as to player races. On the other hand, if the GM wants to run a more standard campaign he'd be entirely in his right to limit the player races to the standard races in the players handbook or even a subset of those.

Multiclassing spellcaster - Point blank, unless you did certain munckin builds...Multiclassing a spellcaster was a good way to hose your character powerwise...I didn't see anything in PF that fixed this.
I'm sure a multiclassed Sorcerer/Wizard will suffer as much as in 3.5 so no change there. However, there's much less reason to multiclass now so hopefully players won't be as tempted to min/min their characters that way.

Bards - Bards were great at being Jacks of all trades...able to do everything...but not good at anything...which meant that overall they could fill a gap...but were ineffective overall at being a good class since...they weren't good at anything (as I just said). They didn't really even have the synergy to have all things work together to make them better then any other class really, in my opinion. Bards got the short end of the stick in 3e (unless you used the Paragon path option in UA, though in that case that was more because they got a Wizards spell casting option...but a better BAB overall, though still a little underpowered in relation to the Wizard...it made for a good mix). What did PF do to actually FIX the bard to have powerlevels equivalent to everyone else?
I've been pleased with the NPC bard that's been tagging along with the players in the Crimson Throne campaign I've been running. I've used bards before as NPC companions for the players in 2.5/3.0/3.5 and the Pathfinder version seems more effective than those in the past, at least in a strong supporting NPC role.

CR vs. EL - This thing was always confusing to players...and occasionally flubbed me up with Monsters. This thing needed to seriously get combined into a much easier system overall...workable...but it could get mixed up at times with a bad memory...what does PF do to fix this?
Pathfinder's treatment of CR is much better than in 3.0/3/5. EL is a thing of the past now.

As I said, 3e and 3.5 were great systems. I didn't really see any reason to change...I currently play Castles and Crusades or 4e though. I did stick with the Pathfinder Adventure Paths when they were for 3e and 3.5...but when they switched to PF exclusively...I stopped buying them...as I didn't see the advantage of PF over 3e/3.5 editions. The items I listed above would be items that I had problems with in PF, or that I didn't think PF addressed.

I'm curious why you stopped following the Pathfinder adventure path after they switched to the Pathfinder Rules. Pathfinder and 3.5 are not that far apart mechanically and it is quite easy to switch things back and forth. I do it all the time with the Crimson Throne (switching 3.5 to Pathfinder on the fly). I suspect it wouldn't be all that hard to convert things the other way.

Getting back to why Pathfinder, my reasons would be :

1/ A fully supported 3.x style rule set.
2/ Better balanced classes. Revitalized for many.
3/ More reasons to stay single-classed (no dead levels)
4/ Better treatment of monster CR
5/ Options for XP advancement rates (slow/med/fast).
6/ The Combat Manoeuvrer system (CMB/CMD)
7/ Some cleaned up spells
8/ An excuse for having a break with some of the game-breaking 3.x rulebooks (e.g. Book of Exalted Deeds, etc)
9/ Sorcerer bloodlines
10/ Clerics and the Channel Energy change
11/ Hey, it's Paizo!
12/ The option to keep using your 3.x library if you wish
13/ It's all OGL! (okay, not the list of gods and Golarion stuff, but the rest of the rules are)
14/ It's the new shiny!
15/ Paizo rocks!
 

Short answers.

I don't buy PDF's online. I buy hardcovers, and normally from a local FGLS or a bookstore.

Why?

People like you should NOT dissuade me...but MAN...you are demoralizing. I have to remind myself that if I get it, I will be playing with my own group. Please, if someone else comes inquiring about PF and looking for answers and help in deciding...maybe you should hold off from answering unless your aim IS TO dissuade them. Trying to weigh the good that some have posted in relation to you and it's surprising to me just what an effect you had on me. IT's stupid for me to have one person affect me in a representation of the players of a game...but really...WOW.

I guess attitudes can drive others away, even if they try to NOT let them.

What are you talking about? No one has attacked you. Stop playing the victim.

Sorry if it came off snarky in my posts, but I was just looking for information and answers. I was as specific as I could be.

Bottom line: you DID come off snarky. My guess is your original post had more than a few readers' blood boiling. Mine was.

I'm still amazed at my own reaction to two solitary posts though. I don't think I've ever been hit with something that makes me just want to back out that fast before...

Spare us the drama. Your original post was aggressive, smug and--as you like to say--snarky. Don't cry foul when you're met with resistance.

Mod Edit: A couple days late, but let me note - saying, "nobody's attacked you," and then following up with an attack is pretty counter-productive. If you think someone's being aggressive and snarky, replying in kind is not a preferred solution. Don't do it. Thanks. ~Umbran
 
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For the multiclass caster thing the Advanced Player's Guide introduces a trait system that can give them a little boost.

The traits are like from the APs, except you get two at first level and can take a feat later to get two more.

One of the traits gives you a +2 on caster level that can't boost your caster level above your character level. It is sort of like a half effect practiced spellcaster feat from later 3.x. This is enough for a normal eldritch knight who is down two caster levels to be at full character level for the power and spell penetration of his spells, even though he will still be down a full spell slot level from being down two levels for spell slots.
 

Also the multiclass caster classes (eldritch knight and mystic theurge) got bumped in power as well with a few little extras. The EK for example has d10 HD instead of d6s, his class levels count as fighter ones for feat prereq purposes, etc.

I'm playing a 13th level EK with that trait right now and enjoying it a lot.
 

Wow quite the discussion.

I totally understand your reluctance to make the switch from 3.5 to a new edition (I was the same way), but honestly you don't really "have" to make any switch. Stick with what you know you like. However, if you like 3.5 as well as the money you have invested in it, then Pathfinder is a great game to pick up. If you do go the 4e rout, just be prepared to learn a whole new system and invest a lot of money into it (and about all of your 3.5 books will be worthless.)

Hey, for $40 you can get 4 of the main books you'll want for Pathfinder: Core Handbook, Bestiary, GM guide, and Advanced Player's Guide. I would not call $40 a 'risk' by any means, and considering the amount of information you'll be getting with that it'll be everything you need and more to run a fun game. You can just get the core book pdf, which is $10 or so, and even if you don't like it all you lost was $10.

Core has all you'll need to get started. The GMG is nothing too new for GMs, but the tables in it are next to gold imo, and the NPC gallery in the back is just priceless! The Bestiary is both a conversion of 3.5 into the new system (which isn't hard, but handy to have) as well as some new monsters, and it has some great template construction concepts that are pretty valuable to any DM as well. Now the Advanced Player's Guide, IMO, is real gold. There are some great classes in there, and the optional class features for core classes mean that you'll have EVERYTHING you ever needed to fit just about ANY archetypal character! Again, all of those in PDF for $40? You can't really ask for better.

Everyone else made some great points on the matter, but honestly I felt that all of the supplemental material from 3.5 was starting to sound OP anyway, so when pathfinder redid the classes the way they did I felt it finally made a perfect balance. There's not a single class in the game that I don't like now.

And focus on the elements of a game that you DO like, and don't focus on everything you don't like. It's not about "getting over it" or anything, but it's a matter of going with "what you really like" vs picking the "lesser of two evils."

EDIT: I just realized that you have something against buying PDF, but my opinion stands while my last two comments are probably the only thing I can offer you to help in your decision.

Hope that helps!
 
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ok, to start with, I pretty much skimmed over the posts, but I did see the"sell me on pathfinder" phrtase couple of times I think. The best thing I can do is simply give my personal reasons for likeing PFRPG over 3.5 or 3.0 systems.

1) I like pf because it has given meaning to being human over some other race by giving a +2 to any one attribute at character creation. In 3.x, all the other races would give pluses to attrributes, but humans remaned weak in the fact.

2) I know this has been addressed already, but I wish to toss in my hat to this as well: core classes verses the splat book classes, the core classes have been given a nice boost. the fight gets something every level like all the other classes did. I really like the scorcerer variations rather then the generic "I come from dragon blood" line of poop. (hope that word is ok on these threads)

favored class is also mentioned, but what i like about what has changed is also wha\t I like about the skills as well . . . rather then penelizing, they gave an award.

A)skill has class skill bonus of +3, and for cross class skills it is a full rank for point.
that makes for a lot easier on the bookkeeping of ranks.It did not bug me in the least
that they got rid of the first level (X + int) bonus times three for skill points. Granted
it took me by suprise to see it gone, but I recovered quickly.

B) multi classing is changed to give a bonus for staying in one class,
the favored class of the character by giving a +1 skill point or +1 hitpoint per level.
that is nice in my opinion. I am glad to see that a reward is given, rather then a
penalty.

3) this is for now my last reason, as there is not agood ernough thing to post that comes to mind, but this is a reason I planned to post regardless of any thing else. Keep in mind that what I am about to say is purly personal . . .

I do not like WOTC and liking pathfinder rpg is my way of thumbing my nose at them, especially for trying to take over dragon ande dungeon magazines.
there i said it! If any thing else come to mind I will add it.
 

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