D&D 4E I miss 4E

[Mercurius]

Well, you did say you missed 4e. There are plenty of non-essentials 4e stuff out there, I assume you have some of it. So why not use it? Whats to "miss"?

Unless by "miss" what you really mean is "I'm disappointed no new classes/feats/powers will be printed between hard-back bindings in the upcoming months". But that's a lot to get out of the word "miss"...

Miss usually implies something was taken away from you. Did WotC take away your 4e books and replace them with Essentials? If so, I definately see your point! I'd be upset too!

Well it seems that you missed the first sentence of my post about being hyperbolic. But to answer your question, obviously not. And this is the same argument that many (including myself) have thrown at disgruntled 3.5 fans when 4E came out. That's not what I'm saying. Nor do I care all that much about new crunch; what I take issue with is the general lack of new material, whether crunch or fluff. And, to answer Nebten's question (which I answered in the OP, I believe) I do not buy all of the hardcovers, maybe about 60% of them. I don't buy any of the Power books, I haven't bought the Dragon and Dungeon Annuals, the Player's Strategy Guide, the Player's Guides, and maybe one or two others. I buy the core books and their extensions, the theme/fluff books (e.g. The Plane Above, Underdark, etc), and the campaign settings.

In that context, to rephrase my original post, what I am taking issue with is:

1. The lack of new material along those lines for the period from mid-August to mid-March or mid-April, in favor of a re-packaged, re-formatted, re-releasing of what is, ah, essentially old material.
2. The possibility that the "Era of the hardcover" is over, and that the direction for 4E going forward is Essentials.

What I am not saying is "I hate Essentials and WotC for killing 4E and taking my stuff!" or "4E 4Evar!" I was happy when 3E came out, happy when 3.5E came out, happy when 4E came out, and probably happy when 5E comes out. I don't mind Essentials but I just hope that it is not the main direction going forward. Call me somewhat disappointed and mildly leery.

The thing about the Essentials books is that, even if you avoid "playing Essentials" as it were, each of those books has elements that can be cannibalized into a more "traditional 4e", as if that were phrase that has any meaning in the first.

Also I have trouble understanding how a book filled with monsters can be an Essentials-exclusive product with no value in a non-Essentials campaign. Yeah, I get that it's part of that product line, but so what? Are they planning huge changes to the way monsters work in Essentials that I haven't heard about?

I didn't say either of those things. What I am saying is that the Essentials products are mainly but not only regurgitations of older products in new formats, formats that I personally like less than the older format (at least insofar as digests vs. hardcovers are concerned). I actually like the non-power oriented martial characters, for instance. But see my response to RigaMortus for more explanation.

 

[GRStrayton]

I have say, I'm glad for the break in non-Essentials 4e products. I can't read the books fast enough! (And I'm happy about the break for financial reasons, as well, because I can't resist new D&D books !) I'm looking forward to the new books and boxed sets coming out soon, but I'm glad I'll have the time to finish reading the stack of hardcovers I have (6 at the moment) in time for the next batch!

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think what Mercurius is saying is much more innocuous that people might be taking it to mean. What I gather from his posts... he is basically saying "WotC is not releasing any material in an 8 month span that I want to buy".

Which is perfectly understandable, and is definitely disappointing, if he has the money to spend but nothing to spend it on. He wants to buy 4E products that he wants to buy... and they are not releasing anything that fits the description. I can't blame him for feeling that way.

But that being said... I also think Mercurius might be a bit blinded by his perceptions, as opposed to what the reality might be. I mean... would he have these same thoughts if rather than 12 hardcovers in the first 8 months... they held back the release of 4 of them? Would he still be "leery" of WotC (as he says he is) if they decided "You know, rather than release the Dark Sun campaign book and the creature in the same month, we'll release the creature book a month later so there's less 'gap'?" What exactly does that solve? Would that actually make things "better" per se? Or holding off on Dungeon Magazine Annual until November, rather than 6 months earlier? Does WotC all of a sudden regain standing in his eyes because he now has the potential to buy the exact same 12 books... but now it's over all 12 months of 2010 rather than just the first 8?

Personally... I don't have the same perception as he does. The Fall of 2010 is the season of Essentials... and they've told us this from the very first announcement of the Essentials line. Late 2008 through early 2010 was getting the current base of players up to speed and giving them all the tools they might possibly need to play... late 2010 was trying to get new players back into the fold with Essentials... and then 2011 would be back to trying to help the player base as a whole. That's always been their plan and they've been very up front about it. And to think that just by releasing Tomb of Horrors in December 2010 rather than July 2010 would somehow now "change" their philosophy and make things less scary for the non-Essentials 4E player, to me seems a little bit silly.

We got our hardcover books early. We should be thankful to Wizards for that... not now be leery of them because of it.

 

[ggroy]

If one is a DM who has banned any and all "Essentialized" stuff from one's 4E D&D game, then the 2011 offerings so far would appear to be slim pickings indeed, such as:

- Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond
- Madness of Gardmore Abbey

and maybe:

- Ravenloft rpg ?
- Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium ?
- Neverwinter Campaign Guide ? (Is the Bladesinger an "Essentialized" version of the swordmage?)

 

[fuzzlewump]

Are you just saying you want hard larger covers instead of soft smaller ones? I'm not sure how you can say you Miss 4E when you say right in your original post that Essentials is 4e. So you're not really missing anything.

If it's just about the hardcover vs. softcover thing... I'm not sure that's significant to the general population. But it might be, I guess.

 

[TerraDave]

Instead of just saying Zucchini! I guess I will try to add a little more.

Below is the 2011 releases as we know them. I have taken out redoes of the core, board games and dungeon tiles

Nentir Vale Gazetteer (maybe)
Player's Option: Heroes of Shadow
Fortune Cards
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium
The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond. Box set
Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale
Player's Handbook: Champions of the Heroic Tier
Neverwinter Campaign Guide for Forgotten Realms
Hero Builder's Handbook
Madness of Gardmore Abbey boxed
Ravenloft Role Playing Game

So ya--as some of us have known for months (ok, I will stop)—there is a shift. Only really 4 books with new player options, 5 DM oriented products, a new game that could also serve as a player or DM resource and fortune cards that are meant to be sold to everyone. Plus some dungeon tiles, board games, maybe some more Gamma World stuff (probably depends). And at least one class compendium.

Which seems fine with me. (Except maybe the lack of adventures—just do what you did with both Tombs of Horrors, I mean, is it that hard?)

Why are they doing it? Clearly, by the middle of last year if not sooner, they realized that their current strategy was not working or was going to stop working and a big shift was needed. I am guessing this represented the exhaustion of their hardbacks mostly for players model with a now vast number of feats, power, classes, races, etc and both lack of desired market share and sales growth for the (core) core rules. (this is on top of the failure of their 08 digital initiatives and the drop off in minis sales).

Their new strategy is clearly designed to relaunch the edition (and resale updated core material), broaden that market share, and still give something new. But new is now cards, boxed sets, board games, D&D variants.

(in terms of hard vs soft, the rumor is that its all soft digest style from now on).

 

[Mercurius]

Are you just saying you want hard larger covers instead of soft smaller ones? I'm not sure how you can say you Miss 4E when you say right in your original post that Essentials is 4e. So you're not really missing anything.

If it's just about the hardcover vs. softcover thing... I'm not sure that's significant to the general population. But it might be, I guess.

I am saying that but not only that. I rephrased my "issue" (such as it is) in my last post; the transition away from hardcovers is one of two points, the other is what is effectively a lot of regurgitated material in that period.

I think what Mercurius is saying is much more innocuous that people might be taking it to mean. What I gather from his posts... he is basically saying "WotC is not releasing any material in an 8 month span that I want to buy".

Which is perfectly understandable, and is definitely disappointing, if he has the money to spend but nothing to spend it on. He wants to buy 4E products that he wants to buy... and they are not releasing anything that fits the description. I can't blame him for feeling that way.

Bingo, thanks for getting the innocuousness of what I am saying! It isn't a huge deal, not even a huge disappointment, but somewhat disappointing. But it does go beyond the 8-month period into questions about D&D's future direction. Are hardcovers done? Or are they reserved to a few a year? (Evidently Mordenkainen's is a hardcover and we still don't know about the Neverwinter Campaign Guide).

But that being said... I also think Mercurius might be a bit blinded by his perceptions, as opposed to what the reality might be....SNIP...We got our hardcover books early. We should be thankful to Wizards for that... not now be leery of them because of it.

I hope you're right! But TerraDave seems to think otherwise...

Instead of just saying Zucchini! I guess I will try to add a little more.

Below is the 2011 releases as we know them. I have taken out redoes of the core, board games and dungeon tiles

Nentir Vale Gazetteer (maybe)
Player's Option: Heroes of Shadow
Fortune Cards
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium
The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond. Box set
Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale
Player's Handbook: Champions of the Heroic Tier
Neverwinter Campaign Guide for Forgotten Realms
Hero Builder's Handbook
Madness of Gardmore Abbey boxed
Ravenloft Role Playing Game

Are you considering the Class Compendium a redo of the core?

So ya--as some of us have known for months (ok, I will stop)—there is a shift. Only really 4 books with new player options, 5 DM oriented products, a new game that could also serve as a player or DM resource and fortune cards that are meant to be sold to everyone. Plus some dungeon tiles, board games, maybe some more Gamma World stuff (probably depends). And at least one class compendium.

Which seems fine with me. (Except maybe the lack of adventures—just do what you did with both Tombs of Horrors, I mean, is it that hard?)

Right - I don't have a problem with the lack of adventures and I think you are pointing out that WotC isn't necessarily lowering their output, just diversifying it a bit from only hardcovers, adventures, one or two softcover supplements, and dungeon tiles. Now we have board games, box sets, and digest books. I'm hoping that there are a few hardcovers in there as well.

Why are they doing it? Clearly, by the middle of last year if not sooner, they realized that their current strategy was not working or was going to stop working and a big shift was needed. I am guessing this represented the exhaustion of their hardbacks mostly for players model with a now vast number of feats, power, classes, races, etc and both lack of desired market share and sales growth for the (core) core rules. (this is on top of the failure of their 08 digital initiatives and the drop off in minis sales).

A quick note: I don't even buy the crunch-only books (Powers); as I mentioned, I buy the core expansions (e.g. PHB 1, 2, 3), the theme books (e.g. Demonomicon), and the Campaign Guides.

Their new strategy is clearly designed to relaunch the edition (and resale updated core material), broaden that market share, and still give something new. But new is now cards, boxed sets, board games, D&D variants.

(in terms of hard vs soft, the rumor is that its all soft digest style from now on).

And I'm hoping that rumor is wrong. But yeah, I hear you about the new strategy and I agree that this is what they are doing. I guess all we can do is wait and see.

 

[Herschel]

I'm kind of with you Mercurious, except I still haven't picked up Psionic Power because I haven't gotten through the books I already have! I REALLY want Arcane Power 2 and Primal Power 2, as well as a race stuff for Genasi, Wilden, Shifters, etc. but the pace they were putting them out at was also (for my tastes) WAY too fast (and likely overly taxing on the creative side). I'm glad there's a bit of a break, but yeah, I'm getting quickly to teh point where I do want more "traditional" releases. I'm not doing any Essentials stuff (even though some of it is pretty good) but they got my money for minis.

 

[MrMyth]

Of even greater concern than the dearth of hardcovers is the fact that most of that material is no more or less than Essentialized 4E. That is, the whole line, for the most part, is just a reprinting, reformatting, and rehashing of older material. Sure, it is updated and errata-ed with a few new bells and whistles, but we're not really seeing anything new, at least not until Heroes of Shadow in March of 2011, afaict.

You know, I sympathize with those whom Essentials doesn't appeal to... and yet, I find this statement completely bogus. The two Heroes books are just as much new content as Martial Power, Arcane Power, etc.

I just don't see your claim as any more legitimate than a 4E player saying, "Man, I missed 4E during April, May, June and July, when WotC abandoned me as a customer, and only put out books like the Plane Above, Demonicon, and all this other DM content."

In the end, not every book will appeal to every customer. That's unavoidable. But the fact that the current content doesn't interest you doesn't mean that WotC has stopped producing material for 4E.

 

[TerraDave]

Are you considering the Class Compendium a redo of the core?

Thats what they seem to be saying. I mean, its supposed to be an improvement, right? (I am curious if there will be any big changes to rituals or more ritual type utilities).

A quick note: I don't even buy the crunch-only books (Powers); as I mentioned, I buy the core expansions (e.g. PHB 1, 2, 3), the theme books (e.g. Demonomicon), and the Campaign Guides.

So, shadowfell box set it is...actually, there are a few products that might fall into that, but it may be a while, as you note in the op.

And I'm hoping that rumor is wrong. But yeah, I hear you about the new strategy and I agree that this is what they are doing. I guess all we can do is wait and see.

The Mordekainen Stuff book was supposed to be hardback, but an Australian actually pushed the digest only rumor today. And if there are cost savings it makes sense.

Though I would not be surprised if, in a few years time, they cycled back to hardbacks (and put all the player stuff in one!).