What is arcane magic?

[Flobby]

Depends on the spirit in question. Primal spirit of the oak tree--yeah, that's a druid thing. Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath--not so much.

I was going to say the same thing as Sorrowdusk there. When you are talking about working with spirits of any kind (in D&D) as a power source, wouldn't that be divine or primal magic?

 

[Flobby]

The main idea is that in the D&D world, certain symbols (written and spoken) are not just arbitrary labels invented by humans for describing reality; they are reality. The true name of a thing is not just a descriptor, it is part of the essence of what that thing is. Therefore, if you know the true name, you have power over the thing.

Try this analogy: Knowing a true name is like having someone's DNA sequence. The DNA sequence is not, itself, a person. It's just data. But with the proper tools, you can do a lot with that data--you can determine the person's parentage, find out their susceptibility to many diseases, clone them, make gene therapies or biological weapons tailored to their physiology, et cetera.

An even better comparison might be the source code of software. The source code is not itself software--you can't just dump a bunch of C++ files on your computer and execute them--but it contains the essential definition of what the software is. Given the right development environment, you can use the source code to replicate and change the software in fundamental ways.

As for how the sulfur and bat guano and other such implements factor into it... it's part of the "physics" of symbol-based magic. In some highly technical way that would likely take years of studying arcane theory to fully understand, these tools allow you to put true names to use, in the same way that the equipment in a genetics lab allows a geneticist to use a DNA sequence, or a development environment allows a software developer to use source code.

(I will add that I'm not a huge fan of magic-as-science, and I prefer arcane magic to be primarily "warlock magic" with just a sprinkling of "wizard magic" elements. But this is how I see "wizard magic" working.)

But then what is a true name? The language of the gods?

 

[Flobby]

If you consider an animistic world, then the symbols/words/etc would be the language of the spirits of nature, or if not a proper language then at least things that they respond to in a predictable way, like a dog can have a trained response. Or they're the words of a compact between the caster and the local spirits. Of course, Spirit Shaman takes up that idea somewhat.

I finally figured out how to multi-quote!

i think that would be primal or divine magic wouldn't it?

Yes, gods have power because they're gods, some of which they loan to their believers. That magic is part of their innate nature.

Psionics is, in some ways, a halfway point between divine and arcane, and as such, has features of both.

How so?

Why does hitting two pieces of special metal together cause them to explode with enough power to level a city? It's part of the special properties of uranium, but why? If someone grew up in my culture, but didn't have high school chemistry or physics, that could be a very long complex discussion. (And it would take years of study to actually understand why you can do this with uranium and not radium.) If someone who grew up in the Forgotten Realms asked that question, I think it would be an exercise in futility to try and explain it. The list of concepts they'd have to internalize before understanding it, like atoms and the conservation of energy, is just too long and too alien.

Correspondingly, even if a wizard was here and willing to explain it, I think it would be an exercise in futility. Ultimately, that's the way it works, and if it were real, there would probably be some deep rules underlying it, but we'd have a hell of a time getting them through our heads.

I like that explanation best so far I think...

It's the name that has power. It's probably be taboo, since you don't want to casually invoke it, and it's probably nontrivial; fire probably wouldn't be faɪɚ, and if it were, faɪə or faɪəɹ wouldn't be good enough. ʙ̤ɴ̥ɶ̃ːʙˤɴ̰ːɶ̃ˑ is more likely and heaven help you if you underround a vowel or slightly palatalize the wrong consonant or hold something for too long or too short.

But psionics is a fancy 19th/20th century term for magic that sounds more scientific.

But I was asking what arcane magic would be IF psionics as a separate power source also existed.

If magic did work, it would be science.

I'm serious. If you explain magic too much then it just becomes another science like physics or quantum mechanics.

I once tried to come up with a whole explanation of what sort of energy magic was and how it could be channeled through things, and why certain things had certain effects, and I realized that it ceased to be wondrous. It ceased to be magical.

But whether it is wondrous or not is not the issue. The question was how would you explain it if it were real -- so you have make it into a science to some extent.

 

[prosfilaes]

I was going to say the same thing as Sorrowdusk there. When you are talking about working with spirits of any kind (in D&D) as a power source, wouldn't that be divine or primal magic?

I don't speak D&D 4, if that's what you're referring to. Certainly talking to spirits does not require invoking deities. "So you want to be a wizard" feels like arcane magic in many cases, but is done "in Life's name, and in Life's sake" and a wizard who can't bear the weight of the world on their shoulders loses their power. Harry Dresden, on the other hand, is pretty clearly arcane magic.

It wouldn't be that hard to justify arcane magic as talking to spirits, though some changes might be needed to be made for flavor.

 

[Flobby]

I don't speak D&D 4, if that's what you're referring to. Certainly talking to spirits does not require invoking deities. "So you want to be a wizard" feels like arcane magic in many cases, but is done "in Life's name, and in Life's sake" and a wizard who can't bear the weight of the world on their shoulders loses their power. Harry Dresden, on the other hand, is pretty clearly arcane magic.

It wouldn't be that hard to justify arcane magic as talking to spirits, though some changes might be needed to be made for flavor.

Well not necessarily 4E, but my original question was (or at least want I MEANT to say if it wasn't clear) that assuming that there was 3 or 4 kinds of "magic" --

divine/animistic/primal/druidic -- where you get your power from gods or spirits.

psionics-- mental powers that can potentionaly be explained physiologicaly

arcane-- powers you get from directly manipulating reality with words/symbols/components

then how would you explain what arcane magic is? the first too make sense... but what are magic words?

 

[questing gm]

The bendable laws of physics.

 

[Merkuri]

But then what is a true name? The language of the gods?

"True names" or magical languages are often portrayed as being in the One True Language.

Think Tower of Babel. It's a language so old that it was not invented - it just IS. All other languages are derivations of the true language. Mortal languages cannot compare to the descriptive power of the true language.

Because the language is a part of the universe it is connected to things deeper than ordinary words are. The English word "fire" is just a bunch of sounds that someone put together to represent fire, but the True Language name for fire IS fire.

 

[steeldragons]

Well not necessarily 4E, but my original question was (or at least want I MEANT to say if it wasn't clear) that assuming that there was 3 or 4 kinds of "magic" --

divine/animistic/primal/druidic -- where you get your power from gods or spirits.

psionics-- mental powers that can potentionaly be explained physiologicaly

arcane-- powers you get from directly manipulating reality with words/symbols/components

then how would you explain what arcane magic is? the first too make sense... but what are magic words?

You did just answered yourself, didn't you?

Magic words are what you use to directly manipulate arcane magic to effect reality.

They are the words (and/or gestures, components, rituals and basic magic-working practices) that wizards spend years and years to learn and master.

I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I've been following this thread and I truly don't get what you are not getting. You want someone to give you an exact definition for the undefinable? You want a real answer for something, in a fantasy game, that is "unreal"?

There simply ARE no answers better than the metaphors and "fantastic" definitions people have already offered you. Pick one you like and roll with it. Ideally in a fantasy world, you should make up your OWN definition for whatever works for you.

What are the words? Some call the "magical alphabet" (in a D&D setting) "Arcanic" or "Arcana" or just the "language of magic." It is whatever you decide they are. What are the words in the Orcish tongue in the Forgotten Realms? What's the language of gold dragons in Eberron?

Unless you want to sit down and write out your OWN magical alphabet, a magical syntax and grammatical spell structures to form an entire language (like Quenya or Klingon) and then combinations for each spell effect I don't understand how you expect ANYone to be able to tell you "what the magic words are."

Good luck and happy gaming (and spellcasting).
--Steel Dragons

 

[Flobby]

"True names" or magical languages are often portrayed as being in the One True Language.

Think Tower of Babel. It's a language so old that it was not invented - it just IS. All other languages are derivations of the true language. Mortal languages cannot compare to the descriptive power of the true language.

Because the language is a part of the universe it is connected to things deeper than ordinary words are. The English word "fire" is just a bunch of sounds that someone put together to represent fire, but the True Language name for fire IS fire.

I guess that makes sense, we just have assume that there is a first language created by God/gods.

 

[Flobby]

You did just answered yourself, didn't you?

Magic words are what you use to directly manipulate arcane magic to effect reality.

They are the words (and/or gestures, components, rituals and basic magic-working practices) that wizards spend years and years to learn and master.

I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I've been following this thread and I truly don't get what you are not getting. You want someone to give you an exact definition for the undefinable? You want a real answer for something, in a fantasy game, that is "unreal"?

There simply ARE no answers better than the metaphors and "fantastic" definitions people have already offered you. Pick one you like and roll with it. Ideally in a fantasy world, you should make up your OWN definition for whatever works for you.

What are the words? Some call the "magical alphabet" (in a D&D setting) "Arcanic" or "Arcana" or just the "language of magic." It is whatever you decide they are. What are the words in the Orcish tongue in the Forgotten Realms? What's the language of gold dragons in Eberron?

Unless you want to sit down and write out your OWN magical alphabet, a magical syntax and grammatical spell structures to form an entire language (like Quenya or Klingon) and then combinations for each spell effect I don't understand how you expect ANYone to be able to tell you "what the magic words are."

Good luck and happy gaming (and spellcasting).
--Steel Dragons

That's not what I meant. I wasn't asking what the magical alphabet was. What I didn't get was why a magical language made sense.
Okay, if arcane magic is based on language than that means there has to be a special magical language right?
Many people suggested that arcane magic would be manipulating reality directly through special formula/words/and mental states, which i think makes sense. But for magical words and symbols to work it would mean that
something like True Names existed, and my problem with that originally was that in the real world language is arbitrary, so equating a word with the essence of something seems so nonsensical. But I guess since it is a fantasy world we could say magic a like the First Language maybe created by or of the gods/primal entities whathaveyou...

So I guess you can't start with the assumption that language is arbitrary, created by humans for arcane magic to be 'real.' Does that sound right?