What is arcane magic?

Merkuri

Explorer
I guess that makes sense, we just have assume that there is a first language created by God/gods.

The language doesn't necessarily have to be created by anyone. It could just be there. It might be more like the words created everything, the words are everything.

Imagine that you live inside a computer game. If you learned to speak magical words of "code" you could change the world however you wanted, as long as you knew the right words. In a way, all a computer game is is code. This is the same sort of way that this magical language could BE the world.

So I guess you can't start with the assumption that language is arbitrary, created by humans for arcane magic to be 'real.' Does that sound right?

Exactly. There are very few magic systems where the words used were invented by mortals. Remember that ideas like this came from a time when people didn't realize where languages came from. There are quite a few myths where language was handed down by gods.

Also, at the same time most people couldn't read, and the idea that symbols on paper could hold meaning seemed a bit magical to them, so it was a short step from there to the idea that symbols on paper could be used to do magic.

I think this was the part where you and everybody else talking about languages were getting signals crossed. I'm pretty sure we all assumed that magical languages were not the same as languages spoken by mortals. Magical languages are something different.

Though the Dresden files take on using words in spells is a big different. Let's see if I can explain it right... The words themselves don't have power, but they act to shield the caster from his own energies. He needs to use words that he associates with the power, but he can't associate the words too strongly or the protection will be gone. So an English caster doesn't want to say "fire" to cast a fire spell (he can, but it won't provide him much protection), but he can say "incendia" (Latin for "fire"). Most casters use archaic languages, like Latin or ancient Greek, but even gibberish will do, as long as you know what the made-up words mean. I thought it was an interesting take on it when I read it.
 

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ourchair

First Post
I've noticed that the problem that most people (not myself) have with the idea that arcane magic is science is the fact that it's tangible representation within a fictional world, doesn't actually resemble anything scientific/empirical we know of.

And that's regardless of whether or not you subscribe to the idea that magic can at some point become indistinguishable from science and vice versa.

In any case, Edward Elric will always refer to his alchemy as a 'science' despite the fact that its physics are kind of wonky and involve conjuring melee weapons from the earth and Dresden Files shows a systematized body of knowledge that does things we can't conceive of.

But as far as I'm concerned the tangible manifestation of magic -- whether it's Dungeons & Dragons, Fullmetal Alchemist or Dresden Files -- is actually irrelevant as to whether or not it IS a science. What things look like IN the world are not necessarily the same as what they ARE.

So, to my mind, if magic can be studied, analyzed and its effects reproducible and can be taught to others, then it IS a science. It does have laws and a degree of empiricism. Sure, it's not OUR science here where we live, but it's A science.
 

Dausuul

Legend
I was going to say the same thing as Sorrowdusk there. When you are talking about working with spirits of any kind (in D&D) as a power source, wouldn't that be divine or primal magic?

Warlocks explicitly gain their power through bargains with spirits or other forces, and 3E and 4E have both identified them as arcane casters.

Gods and angels provide divine magic. Spirits of nature provide primal magic. D&D has never been very consistent on what kind of magic demons, devils, elementals, and other such beings provide. In 4E, for instance, Asmodeus is a deity with paladins and clerics; yet there are also warlocks who receive their power from the Nine Hells.

So, to my mind, if magic can be studied, analyzed and its effects reproducible and can be taught to others, then it IS a science. It does have laws and a degree of empiricism. Sure, it's not OUR science here where we live, but it's A science.

Well, there's the rub--are the effects reproducible? If, for instance, we're going with "warlock magic" (where magic comes from arcane spirits in one form or another), the effect depends on the intervention of a sentient being with its own free agency. You can offer the spirit things that it likes, and it will probably respond favorably, but there's no guarantee--it might be in a bad mood that day, or dislike you personally, or have prior obligations, or any of a dozen other things which might or might not be enough to make it reject the offer.

Is that reproducible?

(In D&D, all this tends to be handwaved, mostly because it's a pain in the neck to create RPG rules for magic where the effects are not reproducible. Even divine magic, which certainly comes from the intervention of sentient beings, tends to gloss over the question of the god's willingness to intervene.)
 
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prosfilaes

Adventurer
So, to my mind, if magic can be studied, analyzed and its effects reproducible and can be taught to others, then it IS a science. It does have laws and a degree of empiricism. Sure, it's not OUR science here where we live, but it's A science.

That doesn't accord with the definition of science I'm familiar with, which label science as "the collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific method". It's not the inherent nature of something, it's how humans treat it.

To take up the example of True Names, it may well be beyond safe human study. Maybe sometimes someone mispronounces one and instead of doing nothing or wiping him from existence, it does something new (unrelated, as far as human minds can see, to what he was trying.) But that's chance; most study is done in ancient texts, recordings of the overheard words of the gods, or material Boccob handed us.
 

NichG

First Post
On the subject of the language of magic, here's a story:

What if originally magic were something different? A primal magic based not on communication, words, phrases, etc, as those things did not exist in those times. First there was nothing. Then from the nothing came the first wills. These wills were aloof, apart from matter and even such things as life and death. Yet as time passed, these wills constructed concepts in their ponderings, concepts that gave rise to thought. This is where Psionics comes from - it is the power of will alone.

These concept evolved and grew until came the concept of that which belonged to a will and that which was without. And so came into existence the separation between substance and mind. This is where Science comes from, the rules delineating the behavior of substance absent will.

Now from substance grew mockeries of the true wills of the universe - things of clay that lived and died, and thought small, isolated thoughts. The necessities of their existence, of life and death, passion and sorrow, gave rise to a new mode of being, that of emotion, or irrationality. It was a thought that was not thought as the ur-wills knew, and it had power in its own right, for it lent one strength to deny the bonds of substance in times of need or desire, to grasp a bit of that power that was held by those who envisioned the cosmos. Yet this wild power was uncontrolled, chaotic, and destructive. This was primal magic, the magic used innately by supernatural creatures.

There came a time when these early beings developed the means to communicate, to take their feelings and surround them in a bottle of words, so that they might be transmitted to each-other without the direct contact of minds that was the purview of the psions. And so words became a new vehicle, a new form of life, but one that was hollow without those who spoke them. As thoughts and emotions were linked to words, a melding occured between psionics and primal magic, the creation of something new, something whose power was that of context. This is arcane magic, and the language of magic has evolved ever-since.

There is no one magical language, because for words while grammar gives structure, context is king. The training a wizard undergoes creates a set of links between the magical language they learn and the thoughts and emotions of their mind. These links lie deep below the surface of the wizard's consciousness, and tap into primal aspects of their being that have long-since been dormant. Study of magic opens up more possibilities, makes more links, and so the practitioner becomes able to create an increasing variety of effects. The study of another wizard's spellbook is the establishment of translation between one's own concept map and that of the author's, and so it is never an easy matter. Scrolls are words that have had their concepts bound into them, given small wills of their own - a wizard who studies a scroll to learn a spell allows those words to write themselves into their mental library.

If one makes a study of magic across many prime material worlds, one finds a hierarchy of these magical languages. It is possible to trace the evolution of the language of magic back in time, looking for places where the lexicons have small variations from eachother and reconstructing dead versions. This study leads one back to an ancient progenitor tongue, one that has wormed its way into every corner of the cosmos. Even more significantly, it is a language which every immortal supernatural creature is familiar with at some level, something from the times of their origins. And so it can bind them, its words recalling memories of that distant past. One who learns the intricacies of this lost language can bind and command such creatures, even to the point of influencing the first wills whose thoughts comprise the cosmos. This is true speech.

Divine magic is much simpler, and is somewhat newer in nature. With the development of wills made of substance, a vast number of wills were introduced to a cosmos that had previously known only a few. The thoughts of these wills were weak compared to the first ones, but they made up for that in number. With time, the power of these thoughts collected in commonalities, things that everyone at some level believed in. With time, people made their own names for these ideas, and thought of them as entities in their own right. And thus were born the gods and spirits. Divine casters tap into their power by establishing a relationship with them, and then using their own belief as a conduit. The words of divine spells are not part of a magical language, they are simply rituals of the caster's religion, things to focus their belief. Divine scrolls are different than arcane scrolls - their power is not that of words with a will of their own, but is instead contained within the ritual significance of the object. A divine scroll is made by performing the proper blessings and rituals. What the scroll says is established by the traditions of the deity it calls upon, but does not bear the scroll's actual function. This is why divine casters do not (generally) learn from scrolls - the blessed object has power, but the ritual text does not have meaning to a believer in a different deity.
 

Flobby

Explorer
The language doesn't necessarily have to be created by anyone. It could just be there. It might be more like the words created everything, the words are everything.

Imagine that you live inside a computer game. If you learned to speak magical words of "code" you could change the world however you wanted, as long as you knew the right words. In a way, all a computer game is is code. This is the same sort of way that this magical language could BE the world.



Exactly. There are very few magic systems where the words used were invented by mortals. Remember that ideas like this came from a time when people didn't realize where languages came from. There are quite a few myths where language was handed down by gods.

Also, at the same time most people couldn't read, and the idea that symbols on paper could hold meaning seemed a bit magical to them, so it was a short step from there to the idea that symbols on paper could be used to do magic.

I think this was the part where you and everybody else talking about languages were getting signals crossed. I'm pretty sure we all assumed that magical languages were not the same as languages spoken by mortals. Magical languages are something different.

Though the Dresden files take on using words in spells is a big different. Let's see if I can explain it right... The words themselves don't have power, but they act to shield the caster from his own energies. He needs to use words that he associates with the power, but he can't associate the words too strongly or the protection will be gone. So an English caster doesn't want to say "fire" to cast a fire spell (he can, but it won't provide him much protection), but he can say "incendia" (Latin for "fire"). Most casters use archaic languages, like Latin or ancient Greek, but even gibberish will do, as long as you know what the made-up words mean. I thought it was an interesting take on it when I read it.

The Dresden files magic sounds really interesting. I've only seen the series, which doesn't go into too much detail on what magic is. So in Dresden files arcane magic comes from within?
 

Merkuri

Explorer
So in Dresden files arcane magic comes from within?

Kinda. They explain it in bits and pieces across the series, and I've only read the first two books so far. I get the picture that you're harnessing some sort of energy (whether it comes from yourself or from elsewhere, I'm not sure) using tricks like speaking nonsense words and drawing circles. Circles are very important in Dresden Files magic.

Also, note that "arcane magic" is kinda redundant in the Dresden files. There are different schools of magic, but not different kinds. "Divine magic", "nature magic", and "arcane magic" aren't terms they use. It's just "magic".
 

4E kind of screwed things up. All power sources are magic in a more defined (real world) cultural way but arcane is kind of left out in the dark.

Primal = Mana
Divine = Theocratic prayer
Psionic = ESP etc

Arcane, I guess is a catch-all for everything else. The whole pact thing reminds me of a kind of a mixture of Solomon or Crowly's style of magic were demons are summoned and then bound.

In a broad (real world) sense, all magic consists of manipulating or being in contact with the spirit world. So perhaps Arcane magic is as simple as that, the manipulation or contact with other planes.

Pacts require negation with entities of different planes. Why couldn't fireball be the combination of ritualized hand gestures and elemental speech to tap the energies of the elemental plane? That's why Mages typically study, in order to learn all the different aspects which grants them the ability to manipulate these energies. Sorcerers are granted such abilities naturally because they possess other-worldly blood etc.

I think that's how I would explain the Arcane power source in game.
 

ourchair

First Post
That doesn't accord with the definition of science I'm familiar with, which label science as "the collective discipline of study or learning acquired through the scientific method". It's not the inherent nature of something, it's how humans treat it.
That's what I thought I was referring to. Insofar as a fiction-world's inhabitants can apply the scientific method to arcane magic -- that it can be observed, tested, analyzed and then replicated (falsifiability) -- then it is a science, even if it doesn't apply the known laws of our world.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I am fond of the idea of Arcane magic as words, runes, and symbols (which is part of why I'd like to classify the Warlock as divine, or 4e's shadow power source, which also seems sort of pact-based).

Take, say, an Astrophysics textbook. Imagine that instead of describing the way things worked, it made things work that way.

Words that move planets.

If someone else writes something contradictory, well, then, you have a magical contest.

Arcane magic is the old Alchemy, is the old Heiroglyphs, is the Old Tongue. Check out Islam's grand calligraphic tradition, or the symbols used in mathematics.

That's my favorite version of Aracne magic: a pattern, a language, a system that the user can manipulate.
 

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