I seem to be missing the point on the online CB

[Imaro]

This whole exchange between Imaro and Scribble is a brilliant, shining example of the divide that exists between what I'm increasingly seeing as two different schools of thought on the Online CB.

(For the record, I tend to side with Scribble on this subject - I always saw my usage of the CB as getting the application for free and paying for the privilege of accessing the data through it.)

But it's clear to me that it's a distinction that some people are just never going to be able to agree on - either you think that $10.00/month (or every couple of months) is a fair price to "own" every bit of the rules catalog Wizards has released, or you think $10.00/month was a fabulous deal that you don't fault Wizards for realizing the error of their ways and reneging on.

No one's going to win that argument. Ever.

Well let me clarify, I never said I wouldn't be willing to pay more for an offline CB or even purchase it seperately from the DDI on disk and pay to update it with "patches"... in fact my major problem isn't the price... it is not being able to purchase a product as opposed to a service... and I honestly think this is where most people who have a problem with the new CB are coming from. Honestly, I want something akin to the AD&D 2e Core Rules set... not something that will vanish when a new edition comes along.

 

[Scribble]

Well let me clarify, I never said I wouldn't be willing to pay more for an offline CB or even purchase it seperately from the DDI on disk and pay to update it with "patches"... in fact my major problem isn't the price... it is not being able to purchase a product as opposed to a service... and I honestly think this is where most people who have a problem with the new CB are coming from. Honestly, I want something akin to the AD&D 2e Core Rules set... not something that will vanish when a new edition comes along.

I would agree with you here, I think most people who have an issue with the service, don't want a service, they want a product, which is a valid desire as much as the next.

Unfortunately WoTC dopes not seem to feel that is the best way to continue in the digital marketplace... for whatever reason.

 

[Grabuto138]

This whole exchange between Imaro and Scribble is a brilliant, shining example of the divide that exists between what I'm increasingly seeing as two different schools of thought on the Online CB.

(For the record, I tend to side with Scribble on this subject - I always saw my usage of the CB as getting the application for free and paying for the privilege of accessing the data through it.)

But it's clear to me that it's a distinction that some people are just never going to be able to agree on - either you think that $10.00/month (or every couple of months) is a fair price to "own" every bit of the rules catalog Wizards has released, or you think $10.00/month was a fabulous deal that you don't fault Wizards for realizing the error of their ways and reneging on.

No one's going to win that argument. Ever.

I don't want to question anyone's intentions but I have to think that if a person is of the mind that they purchased a piece of stand-alone, perpetually funtional, software they are engaged in some self deception. It is just an old-timey way of doing business. The CB is something analogous to iTunes or to the download app I got from my library to check out audio books. The new CB will be analogous to Netflix. iTunes has some utility outside of the Apple Store but that is incidental to the fact that the reason it exists at all, and is free, is that it gives the user an excuse to send money to Apple. People are surely going to start playing the "yeah-but" game with the analogy but it seems pretty indisputible that with the DDi you bought a subscription to access data; you did not buy a "thing." Regardless of what you wished you were buying or pretended you were buying, the distinction between enrolling in a service and buying a product is pretty clear.)

The CB was never sold as an independent application. You could either get the demo or subscribe to the DDi. I don't believe there was ever an option to pay a flat, one time, fee expressely for the software as one might do for Office or Photoshop.

 

[Imaro]

I see it simply as this:
Is the character builder, etc. something you like and use?
Is it worth the monthly price of a gas station mocha and a bag of Funyons to you?

If the answers are yes, subscribe and enjoy. If not, do without, get over it and move on.

Can't most of the topics in these forums (probably most topics in life) be brought down to... "either accept it or don't." ... but then we wouldn't have much to discuss would we?

 

[Imaro]

I would agree with you here, I think most people who have an issue with the service, don't want a service, they want a product, which is a valid desire as much as the next.

Unfortunately WoTC dopes not seem to feel that is the best way to continue in the digital marketplace... for whatever reason.

Yeah, I just honestly wish they had started this way. It's like giving someone a bite of chocolate cake that thye are going to have for dessert later... then "Surprise" you can have chocolate ice cream instead. yeah, it's still chocolate, but man I really wanted some cake.

 

[Imaro]

I don't want to question anyone's intentions but I have to think that if a person is of the mind that they purchased a piece of stand-alone, perpetually funtional, software they are engaged in some self deception. It is just an old-timey way of doing business. The CB is something analogous to iTunes or to the download app I got from my library to check out audio books. The new CB will be analogous to Netflix. iTunes has some utility outside of the Apple Store but that is incidental to the fact that the reason it exists at all, and is free, is that it gives the user an excuse to send money to Apple. People are surely going to start playing the "yeah-but" game with the analogy but it seems pretty indisputible that with the DDi you bought a subscription to access data; you did not buy a "thing." Regardless of what you wished you were buying or pretended you were buying, the distinction between enrolling in a service and buying a product is pretty clear.)

The CB was never sold as an independent application. You could either get the demo or subscribe to the DDi. I don't believe there was ever an option to pay a flat, one time, fee expressely for the software as one might do for Office or Photoshop.

IMO, the original CB was more akin to a modern videogame... I buy the base game, let's say Red Dead Redemption or Fable and that software and data is mine... it resides on storage owned by myself. Now a couple months down the road they offer new missions for these games that I can pay for and download onto my HD...or not. Guess what though, I own those as well (Data and all) once I pay for them and download them onto my HD. I didn't buy Red Dead Redemption or Fable 2 to rent me access to the new missions... I may not even want the new missions...but if I do want them I can pay for them and they are added to my original game... this, IMO, is much more similar to the original CB's model.

IMO, the mistake WotC made was offering tiered subscriptions but not limiting what was accesible with them. With this type of pricing model did they really think people would pay a years price when the smarter bet was to pay for one month every couple (say 4) months at a time. I honestly wonder what they were thinking...

 

[Scribble]

Yeah, I just honestly wish they had started this way. It's like giving someone a bite of chocolate cake that thye are going to have for dessert later... then "Surprise" you can have chocolate ice cream instead. yeah, it's still chocolate, but man I really wanted some cake.

Yeah, had they done that from the beginning it probably wouldn't have been an issue really.

I mean obviously there would still be people who wanted to buy a product as opposed to a service, but I doubt there would be as much anger over it.


From what it sounds like they didn't realize the ease of which the CB data would be pirated? Or at least didn't think it would have as much of an impact as it did?

Whatever the case... I still think they should increase the level of services they offer if they want to offer something pirates can't.

 

[Grabuto138]

The biggest flaw I see with your analogy is that I didn't pay to access the data... I have the data on my HD. This is what I'm not understanding... the data didn't reside somewhere that I couldn't access without the CB...it resides on my HD just like my character sheets do... and this same data could be, and has been, accessed by other software beyond the CB that other people have made available. Now if the original CB had been a piece of software that only worked to give me access to the data WotC kept stored on their servers (basically the same as the new CB) then I would agree... but the fact that they even had to announce this change and the language they use on their site pretty much shows that at least if WotC felt the way you assume they did... their marketing of the product (and yes it was an actual product and not a service) didn't reflect this.

IMO, the original CB was more akin to a modern videogame... I buy the base game, let's say Red Dead Redemption or Fable and that software and data is mine... it resides on storage owned by myself. Now a couple months down the road they offer new missions for these games that I can pay for and download onto my HD...or not. Guess what though, I own those as well (Data and all) once I pay for them and download them onto my HD. I didn't buy Red Dead Redemption or Fable 2 to rent me access to the new missions... I may not even want the new missions...but if I do want them I can pay for them and they are added to my original game... this, IMO, is much more similar to the original CB's model.

IMO, the mistake WotC made was offering tiered subscriptions but not limiting what was accesible with them. With this type of pricing model did they really think people would pay a years price when the smarter bet was to pay for one month every couple (say 4) months at a time. I honestly wonder what they were thinking...

I honestly sympathize because what you experienced was a product that could be updated or not at your pleasure and had utility regardless of whether or not you were subscriber. Unlike a video game, however, I would argue that this is not what you actually bought, regardless of how you experienced it. I think WOTC was pretty upfront about that fact that what they were marketing was a subscription service rather than a tangible product. They were and are selling a product called the Dungeons and Dragons Insider, and when you actually put in your credit card info it was pretty clear you were paying for a subscription not a software application.

I do not fault anyone for doing the "1 month every 6 month" subscription thing. EULA aside I do not fault people for sharing subscriptions (though if a group shares one subscription for six people I think maybe they should consider digging through the couch cushions and comeup with, say, $2/month per person. Individual consciouses may vary, though.)

But rather than all this rage (not pointing at anyone is particular, honestly.) I think a more healthy attitude is, "it was a good ride while it lasted."

 

[Imaro]

I honestly sympathize because what you experienced was a product that could be updated or not at your pleasure and had utility regardless of whether or not you were subscriber. Unlike a video game, however, I would argue that this is not what you actually bought, regardless of how you experienced it. I think WOTC was pretty upfront about that fact that what they were marketing was a subscription service rather than a tangible product. They were and are selling a product called the Dungeons and Dragons Insider, and when you actually put in your credit card info it was pretty clear you were paying for a subscription not a software application.

I do not fault anyone for doing the "1 month every 6 month" subscription thing. EULA aside I do not fault people for sharing subscriptions (though if a group shares one subscription for six people I think maybe they should consider digging through the couch cushions and comeup with, say, $2/month per person. Individual consciouses may vary, though.)

But rather than all this rage (not pointing at anyone is particular, honestly.) I think a more healthy attitude is, "it was a good ride while it lasted."

I'm not raging... but I am irritated since I have an offline CB for 4e classic... and I don't enjoy 4e classic in the least. It was essentials that got me back to playing 4e and WotC's promises that essentials would be in the CB that had me re-sub until I found out they had been misleading in statements concerning DS and Essentials.

 

[badmojojojo]

What part of WotC being a corporation, selling endless amounts of new and expensive books, minis, card-games, tools, and accessories, what part of them making an online for-pay service, made you think at any moment that their end goal was NOT the money?

Am I missing something?!? Is it really that expensive? I got my DDI for 6.95 and my books cost less than $10-15 each. I dont consider this expensive at all. Even my mini's (which i bought bulk on Troll & Toad) cost me less than .50 cents to a dollar each!