I seem to be missing the point on the online CB

[Imaro]

Maybe try looking at it this way: Think of the Character Builder as a car. As a car, they gave you a cheap chassis (demo version) but you needed to buy tires, gas, stereo, oil, maintenance, etc. and need to keep doing so.

Now you will lease the complete, nice car. They add the features, put in the gas, change the oil, rotate the tires, upgrade the whole thing every model year so and you always get to drive a new car so long as you make your payments.

The latter actually gives you better use value for your money and gives the producing company a more consistent revenue stream.

Yes, but the distinction Scribble keeps trying to make is that they originally gave you the car for free and you are only paying for ammenities... and this might be true except for the fact that you are downloading different software when using the full version... not just adding data to the software you got from the demo. His analogy doesn't hold water. I originally bought the full version software and my subscription allows me to add "options"to what I have bought when WotC releases them.

As far as your car analogy goes it doesn't fit very well as it assumes you will want to upgrade your car eventually to a new model or different car... rpg's don't necessarily work that way.

I mean we all know eventually 5e will be released, and many people know that they may not like 5e as much as 4e and thus the ability to keep using the CB if they want... with the options for the books they have, far outweighs the value of a Web based CB (that WotC will probably end support and usage for just like the offline one)... especially at the same price.

EDIT: Even now with the offline CB downloaded, eventually it will be lost by people, through HD crashes, accidental uninstalls, etc. that is why WotC is not going to make the download available after Nov.16th.

 

[Sunseeker]

Yes, but the distinction Scribble keeps trying to make is that they originally gave you the car for free and you are only paying for ammenities... and this might be true except for the fact that you are downloading different software when using the full version... not just adding data to the software you got from the demo. His analogy doesn't hold water. I originally bought the full version software and my subscription allows me to add "options"to what I have bought when WotC releases them.

No, originally they gave you a car that could only drive 3 miles a day, so you still had to take the bus to work.

As far as your car analogy goes it doesn't fit very well as it assumes you will want to upgrade your car eventually to a new model or different car... rpg's don't necessarily work that way.

Planned obsolesence is not a surprisingly new tactic, and yes, even RPGs work that way.

I mean we all know eventually 5e will be released, and many people know that they may not like 5e as much as 4e and thus the ability to keep using the CB if they want... with the options for the books they have, far outweighs the value of a Web based CB (that WotC will probably end support and usage for just like the offline one)... especially at the same price.

What WotC will likely do is release a 5E builder, a 5E dungeon tools, a 5E compendium, and you'll get that with your subscription, and slowly they'll phase out the 4E tools, and then people will sign up for the service from the beginning.

 

[Scribble]

... You don't have the ability to get it without the data... yet the software is free... and the data isn't.... That's some pretty fuzzy logic.

I can't use my broadband without a modem.
I can't use my modem without a broadband service.

This does not make the two the same thing.

If I stopped subscribing to my data service the modem isn't going to cease doing what it does, it's not going to explode, or refuse to turn on. It just won't have any broadband to connect to.

If I give up my modem, broadband is not going to cease to exist, nor will it stop sending a signal to my house. I just won't have any way of making use of it.

Again the utility of one or the other is lessened without having both, but that does not make them the same thing.

Comcast COULD offer me a free modem when I subscribe to the data package, but instead they charge me for it. As a separate entity.

Wizards COULD charge someone for the CB when they subscribe to get the data, but they don't. The software to make use of the data comes free.


If that doesn't clarify things for you, or you're not willing to see a different perspective (remember from the start I said depending on your perspective) then I think we should just end it here.

 

[Imaro]

No, originally they gave you a car that could only drive 3 miles a day, so you still had to take the bus to work.

Which would be the demo... but you download new software (thus a new car) when you pay for the full version.

Planned obsolesence is not a surprisingly new tactic, and yes, even RPGs work that way.

Didn't say it was new... doesn't mean I or many others like it. Especially when it'sthe opposite direction you originally went in.

What WotC will likely do is release a 5E builder, a 5E dungeon tools, a 5E compendium, and you'll get that with your subscription, and slowly they'll phase out the 4E tools, and then people will sign up for the service from the beginning.

Yep, only I don't think there will be a slow phase out... especially after how they handled the phasing out of the offline builder. But in the end this is exactly what many people don't want... they want a product not a service... and WotC made it even worse by offering the product originally.

 

[Imaro]

I can't use my broadband without a modem.
I can't use my modem without a broadband service.

This does not make the two the same thing.

If I stopped subscribing to my data service the modem isn't going to cease doing what it does, it's not going to explode, or refuse to turn on. It just won't have any broadband to connect to.

If I give up my modem, broadband is not going to cease to exist, nor will it stop sending a signal to my house. I just won't have any way of making use of it.

Again the utility of one or the other is lessened without having both, but that does not make them the same thing.

Comcast COULD offer me a free modem when I subscribe to the data package, but instead they charge me for it. As a separate entity.

Wizards COULD charge someone for the CB when they subscribe to get the data, but they don't. The software to make use of the data comes free.


If that doesn't clarify things for you, or you're not willing to see a different perspective (remember from the start I said depending on your perspective) then I think we should just end it here.

This has no bearing on the CB being free though... you have failed to back up the assertion that you get the CB for free and pay for data updates... that is what I have a problem with... even if they are seperate entities (which I still think is stretching it) where is the notion that the CB is free backed up or even come from?

EDIT: I have given examples that the software for the demoand the software for a DDI subscriber are different (not just different data) so when you pay... you get something different as far as software goes.

 

[Scribble]

This has no bearing on the CB being free though... you have failed to back up the assertion that you get the CB for free and pay for data updates... that is what I have a problem with... even if they are seperate entities (which I still think is stretching it) where is the notion that the CB is free backed up or even come from?

The fact that you are not charged extra the first time you subscribe.

 

[Imaro]

The fact that you are not charged extra the first time you subscribe.

You aren't charged extra (beyond the sub price) for the new data, new software, mags or anything else.

 

[Stumblewyk]

This whole exchange between Imaro and Scribble is a brilliant, shining example of the divide that exists between what I'm increasingly seeing as two different schools of thought on the Online CB.

(For the record, I tend to side with Scribble on this subject - I always saw my usage of the CB as getting the application for free and paying for the privilege of accessing the data through it.)

But it's clear to me that it's a distinction that some people are just never going to be able to agree on - either you think that $10.00/month (or every couple of months) is a fair price to "own" every bit of the rules catalog Wizards has released, or you think $10.00/month was a fabulous deal that you don't fault Wizards for realizing the error of their ways and reneging on.

No one's going to win that argument. Ever.

 

[Scribble]

You aren't charged extra (beyond the sub price) for the new data, new software, mags or anything else.

The magazines are kind of the same thing.

You subscribe to get the pdfs. If you don't have a way to read them, they don't disappear, or stop being what your subscription gets you, they're just not so useful to you.

I guess what confuses things is that there is no other way to view the CB data your subscribing to without the CB. Luckily (or intelligently) they offer that system for free.

They don't have to offer a pdf reader, because adobe already does that.

(For the record, I tend to side with Scribble on this subject - I always saw my usage of the CB as getting the application for free and paying for the privilege of accessing the data through it.).

I didn't see it as accessing that data in the case of the CB. In the case of the CB you were getting a digital copy of that data for use within the CB.

They're no longer selling that digital downloadable data (I can understand from their point of view why not.)

 

[Herschel]

I see it simply as this:
Is the character builder, etc. something you like and use?
Is it worth the monthly price of a gas station mocha and a bag of Funyons to you?

If the answers are yes, subscribe and enjoy. If not, do without, get over it and move on.