D&D monks and their lameness :)

[Argyle King]

I enjoyed playing monks. In my experience, most people who find monks subpar are trying to play their monk the same way they would play one of the other melee classes. That's not to say I don't believe the 3E monk had issues -it did, but I feel that many of those issues were exaggerated by people trying to play monks the same way they would play a fighter.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I enjoyed playing monks. In my experience, most people who find monks subpar are trying to play their monk the same way they would play one of the other melee classes. That's not to say I don't believe the 3E monk had issues -it did, but I feel that many of those issues were exaggerated by people trying to play monks the same way they would play a fighter.

QFT. It's not a class built to stand still & trade blows; you're supposed to be mobile, agile and hostile.

 

[Walking Dad]

QFT. It's not a class built to stand still & trade blows; you're supposed to be mobile, agile and hostile.

If it is designed as a mobile class, having a full-attack class feature (no movement besides 5 ft steps) seems counter intuitive...

And how are they hostile?

- Missing with medium bab and either low damage (weapon attack of MAD) class or having to pay massively for your enhancement bonus (Amulet of Mighty Fists).

- Trying grappling huge+, incorporeal and / or damaging aura enemies at higher levels?

- Trying to trip oozes, dragons or centipedes?

 

[ProfessorCirno]

QFT. It's not a class built to stand still & trade blows; you're supposed to be mobile, agile and hostile.

Mobile, agile, and utterly useless. There is no "hostile" there. You're jumping around and doing one attack for a minute amount of damage that probably misses. That is literally a waste of character.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If it is designed as a mobile class, having a full-attack class feature (no movement besides 5 ft steps) seems counter intuitive...

Didn't say it was perfect, but do you honestly believe that 3/4 BAB, d8HD, no armor, a movement bonus and small weapons says "stand still & pound?"

And how are they hostile?

Dex/Wis/Con or Str build- emphasize making ranged attacks (crossbows, shuriken, javelins, grenade-like weapons, etc.), maximize your AoOs and so forth. Hard target to hit, really good reflex saves. Use weapons when you have to...or even as your preferred attacks, esp. if you choose feats expanding the monk weapon list or are playing one of the published variants with a different weapon list.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The only thing they seemed good at was bypassing the front line (something their huge speed bonuses and Tumble skill helped at) and then grapple-lock or stun the enemy wizard. Flurry of Blows didn't seem all that useful there.

That was about it. It's like telling someone in 4e, your character won't be that great except against controllers.

 

[pawsplay]

Monks are "defensive specialists."

"Hey, monk. What are you going to do against the gargantuan scorpion?"
"Why is it everyone looking at me? All the full BAB classes are just getting out their bows. Whoop de doo. Can't you just leave me to make a saving throw in peace or something?"

 

[GreyLord]

Obviously I'm the sort of player who deliberately avoids such rules abuse.



1) It's legal. You just had to be lawful neutral.
2) Alignment has nothing to do with game balance. It was simply an intrusion of rules on roleplaying.



Wildshape lasts hours/level, making the activation time nearly meaningless. Once you hit 5th-level, you might as well be wildshaped as long as possible, as long as you weren't involved in social interactions. (You can do so for 21 hours per day at 7th-level, and IIRC you couldn't dispel it either.) Once wildshaped, enjoy your Wisdom bonus to AC! (And whatever other monk benefits might apply.)

Druids weren't as good at buffing as clerics IME. They tended to be better at blasting though. But if you had a round to cast Barkskin then, why not?

(And on another note, a reasonably built cleric who reached 9th-level could nearly match a fighter in combat with a single spell. No need for a long buffing suite.)

As I said, depends on your DM's interpretation. According to the 3e rules...it states they HAVE TO BE LAWFUL...with no indication that anything other than a pure lawful would be allowed...BUT it's up to how your DM interprets it...in addition in the core rules it is implied and suggested that only True Neutral be allowed to be a Druid. It gives wiggle room however for those who absolutely must play something else as in all have opposites, the Neutral Good to the Neutral evil. In both those instances it depends on the DM's interpretation of that line...some would say Alignment is another obstacle to ensuring balance of some classes. I probably would be more akin to letting wiggle room and a more lax interpretation. It says Lawful...but doesn't say that the Lawful can't be Lawful Neutral (though it specifies that this is an option with the druid and does not with the Monk).

Part of this is I'm one of those who sees the Monk as underpowered...and anything that gives a powerboost (then again I can munchkin if I want who had a Rogue doing half a thousand points of damage a round with one character).

As for the Cleric, monsters aren't stupid...it only takes one or two encounters for them to learn who to take out in one round...and who says that Cleric was even going to get one round to buff? Good dispels and anti-magic is good to for guys who depend overly upon these characters that are total buff...but in reality are easy to take out if they pretend they are fighters.

Never understood the rants people had as with a decent focus...that entire CoDzilla effect can be taken out, at least with just core in effect. Now with everything outside of core tossed in with the Kitchen sink...making PunPun possible...that's a different matter.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The only thing they seemed good at was bypassing the front line (something their huge speed bonuses and Tumble skill helped at) and then grapple-lock or stun the enemy wizard. Flurry of Blows didn't seem all that useful there.

OTOH, my Dex/Wis/Con build Monk/Kensai used FoB and AoOs with her Greatspear to deal more melée damage to a pair of Green Dragons than any other PC in the party- while remaining relatively unscathed- in a Dallas ENWorld gameday scenario run by der_kluge.

Could a fighter have done better? Quite possibly. But the PC was effective.

"Hey, monk. What are you going to do against the gargantuan scorpion?"

At least 2 of my 3.5Ed monks would say "I FoB with my polearm."

(Probably after using a crossbow and or grenade-like weapons.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As I said, depends on your DM's interpretation. According to the 3e rules...it states they HAVE TO BE LAWFUL...with no indication that anything other than a pure lawful would be allowed...

There's no such thing as a "pure lawful" alignment. The closest is lawful neutral, I suppose, which is legal.

Part of this is I'm one of those who sees the Monk as underpowered...and anything that gives a powerboost

Are we still talking about the Druid x/Monk 1? Because that seems more of a power boost for the druid than the monk

As for the Cleric, monsters aren't stupid...it only takes one or two encounters for them to learn who to take out in one round...and who says that Cleric was even going to get one round to buff?

With you so far.

Good dispels and anti-magic is good to for guys who depend overly upon these characters that are total buff...but in reality are easy to take out if they pretend they are fighters.

But this is heavily campaign-dependent. Monsters very rarely have access to Dispel Magic. I think in the various MMs generally only demons have access to that as a spell-like ability, and only the more powerful ones. But in some campaigns, NPCs are very common, and encounters with NPC clerics or wizards (with Dispel Magic) could be happening all the time.

I'm only concerned with clerics that spend a single round buffing anyway, which is not overpowered IME. Even non-magic-using monsters won't let a cleric spend three or four rounds putting up a buffing suite, barring some very exceptional circumstances.

Although this has next to nothing to do with the druid, whose best buff cannot be dispelled. And nothing to do with the monk (while you can buff a monk, you can also buff a fighter, or rogue, or barbarian...).