D&D 4E 4E Core or Essentials?

[TerraDave]

I'd go with essentials. For non-spellcasters, they actually have a lot of options compared to "old school" games. Spellcasters have less, but they still have them.

As noted up thread, a lot of stuff will be "essentialized" in coming months. The options will be there in various formats.

Ok, that pretty much makes sense. Your players can map on paper and then encounters are set up on tiles or maps. I can see how that works.

Thats it. If you happen to have the poster maps or tiles you can build out more of the dungeon, but not needed.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Essentials first. See my initial impressions, but I'll expand my thoughts here now that I have a few months experience.

Rules Compendium: It is the most comprehensive and up-to-date version of the rules. A fantastic product that I recommend everyone playing 4E pick up and use.

Heroes of the ...: If your son like his Starter Set characters, I'd lay off for now. Pick up one or the other when you want a rules reference for players, character creation rules that are more streamlined than the Starter Set, and--obviously--different race and class options. I miss gnomes and githzerais and sorcerers and monks and dailies psionics in my current Essentials-only games. Take a long look with your son at the various races and classes in the PHBs and Hot... books before spending any money. Yes, the PHBI has been extensively rules updated, but it's not that bad if you only pay attention to the races and classes and use the Rules Compendium for gameplay mechanics.

DM Kit: Nice. More tokens, more maps, what looks to be a good adventure, and a nice DM screen. Get this if you are going to be creating your own adventures. If you are using mostly published adventures you can wait. If you do get this, take a close look at the DMGI and DMGII later. They are two of the best guides ever printed to creating and running RPG sessions for any system. Also the new DM kit leaves out plenty, while updating other stuff. Probably most notable, the DMGs have monster creation rules that are missing from Essentials.

Monster Vault: A great set of monsters: extremely iconic, extremely playable, and tokens, tokens, tokens. Also has an adventure I haven't looked at very closely. Like the DM Kit, pick this up when you start creating your own adventures, but you can lay off for a while if you're using published. This pretty much entirely supersedes the MMI, but I'd take a look at MMII and MMIII for more exotic fare.

Tile Sets: To answer your question of whether you can just describe a setting and let the players map it in 4E, the answer is not really. You'll want to fill your encounters with interesting features to maximize the tactical nature of combat and add flavor to your settings. When every square matters you can't really leave it to your players to try and guess what you're talking about.

For this reason I've become a big fan of dungeon tiles. They let you quickly lay out the map space as the players encounter it with more verisimilitude than ink on paper. Even if you use paper as your main map, strategic use of tiles can really highlight something unique or interesting in your encounter.

I think the tile sets are very good values, and if you start using them you'll soon want at least a couple of each. I also encourage you to discover Gaming Paper.

Pre-Essentials Books: See my review of every pre-Essentials supplement. In a nutshell, Underdark and Open Grave are very much worth considering in the Heroic tier. Manual of the Planes, Plane Below, and Plane Above should get a look if you want to venture into the Paragon tier. Player's Strategy Guide is extremely underrated and I recommend it to new players even post-Essentials.

Insider: Get a month and see what you think. I don't subscribe, and have no problem creating characters, adventures, or monsters or running my games. The price of one month is probably worth it just to get the complete archives of the post-DDI issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine.

Most importantly, don't get bogged down in rules or supplements. Start with your flavor and drama and the core mechanic ("roll a d20" or "make a check" should be the 4E DM's mantra) and end with having fun.

 

[Nifft]

No doubt a very compelling reason to use the online versions. I thought that the Essentials books were taking care of most of the changes an errata?

What is in Essentials has the errata on it already.

But that's irrelevant, since we're not talking about Essentials right now. We're talking about buying hardback books vs. renting access to them over the internet. I'm of the opinion that renting access is cheaper, more convenient, and far less time-consuming.

Cheers, -- N

 

[renau1g]

Let's not turn this into a Character Builder fight thread.

I wasn't, just pointing out that the statement really wasn't accurate. Even with it's reduced utility, the new CB is way easier than making by hand, however I found that my players knew their PC's better when they made them by hand. There was also a lot of times where bonuses aren't calculated in properly so we had to write things in manually as is. (i.e. Staff Expertise doesn't add in automatically for your Melee Basic Attack with a staff.)

My recommendation would be start with the core PHB, which contains many of the iconic classes, maybe PHB2 if you want the "primal" ones (barbarian, druid, etc).

You likely don't really have to worry about the errata as much of it really is only needed to stop abusive situations. I never had any real issues in any of my games even with the PHBI only stuff all the way through paragon, now none of my players are powergamers so YMMV/

 

[Nifft]

I wasn't, just pointing out that the statement really wasn't accurate. Even with it's reduced utility, the new CB is way easier than making by hand, however I found that my players knew their PC's better when they made them by hand. There was also a lot of times where bonuses aren't calculated in properly so we had to write things in manually as is. (i.e. Staff Expertise doesn't add in automatically for your Melee Basic Attack with a staff.)

Well, the character builder certainly isn't a substitute for thinking, but that's got very little to do with how well it compares with the old one -- since the old one was equally inadequate in this regard.

My recommendation would be start with the core PHB, which contains many of the iconic classes, maybe PHB2 if you want the "primal" ones (barbarian, druid, etc).

You likely don't really have to worry about the errata as much of it really is only needed to stop abusive situations. I never had any real issues in any of my games even with the PHBI only stuff all the way through paragon, now none of my players are powergamers so YMMV/

My dislike for the PHB1 stems from its holes, not from its lack of power. In fact, a lot of the most broken stuff is in the PHB1. Champion of Order and Hospitalier are examples, as are some of the Fighter and Ranger pre-errata Encounter powers, and a certain Cleric at-will. The PHB1 has seen a lot of nerfs.

The PHB1 Paladin is a trap: it looks like you can make a Strength-based Paladin, but your mark will suck, and you won't have any power choices at some levels. Charisma-based Paladins are very non-sticky until Divine Power, which really does a lot to fix both kinds of Paladin.

So, sure, you can use the PHB1 as-is, but you'll have a big disparity in power and usefulness between the well-designed classes (Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Warlord), the ZOMG powerful class (Cleric), and the not-quite-done classes (Wizard, Warlock, Paladin).

Finally, the bulk of the errata isn't to "stop abusive situations", it's to fix problems with the game. For example: every Elite and Solo in the MM. Were these a bunch of "abusive situations"? No, they were just done poorly, and a few more years of experience with the system showed the designers how to design better.

Cheers, -- N

 

[renau1g]

Personally all of the errata has been to stop abusive/overpowered situations (daggermaster sorcerers, Grasp of the Grave, those powers you were talking about, etc.). One errata in July this year corrected monster hp/damage. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Now you mention holes, that may be true now, but at the time when it was released it was obviously less evident. In two more years we'll be like, OMG there's so much holes in Essentials classes, you can't make XYZ that you can now.

I didn't say the PHB hasn't seen a lot of nerfs, but that I never had any problems from any players in my game with the classes as written all the way through paragon. And yes we did have a Str-based paladin. Was she as powerful as a Lordduskblade-built fighter? No. Did my wife have a ton of fun? Yes.

I never found the cleric to be OP'd either... the one at-will was one of the few decent selections for a Str-based cleric.

Also, I never said the new CB is better or worse for the errors than the old one. My comment was to scribble about not reading feats. The new CB doesn't not provide a summary of the feat as the old one did, therefore you need to click on each one to know what it does.

 

[sst187]

Essentials first. See my initial impressions, but I'll expand my thoughts here now that I have a few months experience.

Rules Compendium: It is the most comprehensive and up-to-date version of the rules. A fantastic product that I recommend everyone playing 4E pick up and use.

Heroes of the ...: If your son like his Starter Set characters, I'd lay off for now. Pick up one or the other when you want a rules reference for players, character creation rules that are more streamlined than the Starter Set, and--obviously--different race and class options. I miss gnomes and githzerais and sorcerers and monks and dailies psionics in my current Essentials-only games. Take a long look with your son at the various races and classes in the PHBs and Hot... books before spending any money. Yes, the PHBI has been extensively rules updated, but it's not that bad if you only pay attention to the races and classes and use the Rules Compendium for gameplay mechanics.

DM Kit: Nice. More tokens, more maps, what looks to be a good adventure, and a nice DM screen. Get this if you are going to be creating your own adventures. If you are using mostly published adventures you can wait. If you do get this, take a close look at the DMGI and DMGII later. They are two of the best guides ever printed to creating and running RPG sessions for any system. Also the new DM kit leaves out plenty, while updating other stuff. Probably most notable, the DMGs have monster creation rules that are missing from Essentials.

Monster Vault: A great set of monsters: extremely iconic, extremely playable, and tokens, tokens, tokens. Also has an adventure I haven't looked at very closely. Like the DM Kit, pick this up when you start creating your own adventures, but you can lay off for a while if you're using published. This pretty much entirely supersedes the MMI, but I'd take a look at MMII and MMIII for more exotic fare.

Tile Sets: To answer your question of whether you can just describe a setting and let the players map it in 4E, the answer is not really. You'll want to fill your encounters with interesting features to maximize the tactical nature of combat and add flavor to your settings. When every square matters you can't really leave it to your players to try and guess what you're talking about.

For this reason I've become a big fan of dungeon tiles. They let you quickly lay out the map space as the players encounter it with more verisimilitude than ink on paper. Even if you use paper as your main map, strategic use of tiles can really highlight something unique or interesting in your encounter.

I think the tile sets are very good values, and if you start using them you'll soon want at least a couple of each. I also encourage you to discover Gaming Paper.

Pre-Essentials Books: See my review of every pre-Essentials supplement. In a nutshell, Underdark and Open Grave are very much worth considering in the Heroic tier. Manual of the Planes, Plane Below, and Plane Above should get a look if you want to venture into the Paragon tier. Player's Strategy Guide is extremely underrated and I recommend it to new players even post-Essentials.

Insider: Get a month and see what you think. I don't subscribe, and have no problem creating characters, adventures, or monsters or running my games. The price of one month is probably worth it just to get the complete archives of the post-DDI issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine.

Most importantly, don't get bogged down in rules or supplements. Start with your flavor and drama and the core mechanic ("roll a d20" or "make a check" should be the 4E DM's mantra) and end with having fun.

What an excellent post! I really appreciate how much thought must have went into it and the amount of inofrmation you provided! I belong to not a few forums on several dispitrate subjects on the web. This one has so far been one of my most pleasent & useful ones to vist.

Thank you all again!

 

[Dice4Hire]

What is in Essentials has the errata on it already.

Be sure you include the words 'thus far' on these statements. Essentials has only been out two months and the core books two years. There is bound to be some errata.

 

[Nifft]

Personally all of the errata has been to stop abusive/overpowered situations (daggermaster sorcerers, Grasp of the Grave, those powers you were talking about, etc.). One errata in July this year corrected monster hp/damage. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

Stealth got changed, skill challenges were completely re-done, and some things were just plain re-written (like Magic Missile). A lot of classes got stealth errata by the virtue of simply getting new stuff which completely eclipsed the old stuff. For example, look at how many single-target psychic Will attacks there are on the Wizard spell list.

I didn't say the PHB hasn't seen a lot of nerfs, but that I never had any problems from any players in my game with the classes as written all the way through paragon. And yes we did have a Str-based paladin. Was she as powerful as a Lordduskblade-built fighter? No. Did my wife have a ton of fun? Yes.

See, in my group, we had both a Fighter and a Paladin. Neither was played by a power-gamer. Every single session, the Fighter's player was all kinds of HELL YEAH, while the Paladin's player was frustrated.

So yes, the core Paladin does suck the fun right out of the game for some people. Bad designs do have a negative impact on games.

I never found the cleric to be OP'd either... the one at-will was one of the few decent selections for a Str-based cleric.

It was as decent as Twin Strike, which is to say it was among the 3 most powerful at-wills in the game.

Now that it's been nerfed it's merely quite good.

Be sure you include the words 'thus far' on these statements. Essentials has only been out two months and the core books two years. There is bound to be some errata.

Well, the errata that I worry about is the big sweeping system-changing stuff. I'm sure there are printing errors, editing errors, etc. which may need to be corrected, but there's a difference between that stuff and the designers changing their minds (like they did with the role of Controller), or with the designers not knowing the full implications of their decisions (like recently, they decided that scaling bonuses are bad, and replaced them with fixed power bonuses + a feat tax, THEN they decided that feat taxes are too boring and added some more interesting feat tax choices).

I think we're pretty much done with the broad, sweeping system changes. I think the 4e system is now a well understood space. I don't think you'll see even a tenth the errata for Essentials that you did for the original core books, and I'm willing to bet that the errata that we do see is trivial in comparison.

Cheers, -- N

 

[sst187]

Well I went out and bought the DM Kit, the Monster Vault, Hero's Of The Forgotten Kingdoms, and the Dungeon Masters Guide I. The Essentials stuff is nicely done though I must say that I still prefer hardback books. So I sat down with my son on Wednesday evening and proceeded to create some new characters. WOW ... it is not a fully intuitive process! I figured the process would be easier with the Essentials book but I guess I miss-judged. We were finally at least somewhat successful but I am still unsure on several points. Perhaps it is I am not the sharpest spoon in the drawer but I would think a "flow chart" of the process would be most helpful. I also was surprised at how much the needed information was spread out around the book. It has been many years but I seem to remember character creation in 1st & 2nd edition being much easier. I am also still unclear about whether or not Essentials is compatible with the original books.

One question on characters I have right now that seems unclear from the book is how is and Ability Check determined? Where does that number come from?