Swordmage: Isn't it a little bit unbalanced?

[Mengu]

To reduce the damage, a Shielding Swordmage should use an immediate interrupt action. Thus, he can use it only once/round. So, if you have 2+ monsters who are serious threat, you can always let monsters just ignore mark and attack much squishy PCs. The first hit may be reduced it's damage. But the second and the later hits in a round will cause full damage. -2 to attack? Accept it. That is expected penalty as almost all the parties have some defender(s).

And a Swordmage is not particularly good at marking multiple opponents at a time nor good at punishing multiple opponents/round. For monsters, ignoring a swordmage is not as problematic as, say, ignoring a Charisma-Din sprinkling Divine Sanctions.

A paragon swordmage can easily keep two creatures marked. If they both ignore the swordmage, and if the strikers in the party have reasonably good defenses, after the -2 penalty, one of them will miss a striker, and the other one's damage will be reduced. Ignoring a swordmage is really not the best idea. Actually the paladin sanctions are a bit more ignorable, because all he does is a little bit of extra damage (unless you have vulnerability radiant, then it's probably best not to ignore).

The way to deal with a party doing well with a defender is simply to increase the challenge for the entire party (not just for the defender). You let the party equalize itself, and make some decisions on when, where, and who takes the damage.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

The way to deal with a party doing well with a defender is simply to increase the challenge for the entire party (not just for the defender).

Or (and I go far, far out on a limb here) you can let the players enjoy a feeling of accomplishment for a while, until you notice that they seem to be getting bored with encounters that are too easy to be interesting.

 

[Herschel]

It is a pretty good power, especially when used in "encounter mode", but the one thing that Swordmages do NOT lack is good utility powers. There is a lot of competition.

Yeah, Armathor's Step is pretty tough to not take also.

 

[Sunseeker]

Eh, my swordmage does jank for damage, and to be honest his marking capabilities are pretty sad too. Even with the variety of other powers, I can, at best, mark 2 things at once, 3 if I'm lucky.

When the party, which is a big larger than normal(7-8, 1 or 2 are NPCs), is under attack, I'm picking up pretty much nothing out of an average of 10-15 enemies attacking us. The fighter tank is usually gathering up at least 5 or so.

With some average gear, I'm only sitting on a 23 AC, with my Fort/Will/Ref at 18. It's pretty unspectacular.

 

[Herschel]

What build are you using where all your Non-ACs are even? A Swordmage working with a fighter can be downright devastating.

 

[Shin Okada]

A paragon swordmage can easily keep two creatures marked. If they both ignore the swordmage, and if the strikers in the party have reasonably good defenses, after the -2 penalty, one of them will miss a striker, and the other one's damage will be reduced. Ignoring a swordmage is really not the best idea. Actually the paladin sanctions are a bit more ignorable, because all he does is a little bit of extra damage (unless you have vulnerability radiant, then it's probably best not to ignore).

The way to deal with a party doing well with a defender is simply to increase the challenge for the entire party (not just for the defender). You let the party equalize itself, and make some decisions on when, where, and who takes the damage.

Even without any boost via feats, Charisma-Din's radiant damage is not bad as an automatic damage. Compare it to other auto damage such as, say, Magic Missile. At L1, Divine Challenge/Sanction is ability mod +3 while Magic Missile is Ability Mod +2. Magic Missile will gain enhancement bonus from implements. But when Symbol of the Champion's Code become available, radiant damages gain the same amount of bonus, too.

And anyway, the damage is what kills a monster and stop it for sure, reducing monster's damage doesn't. Also, minions will die with automatic damage no matter how that damage is low.

Also, when comparing to Fighter, Warden with Sudden Roots, Knight and such, Swordmage is not good at stopping opponents with his OA.

I don't say Swordmage to be particularly a bad defender. But not particularly a good defender, too. IMHO it is another OK defender.

Simply increasing the challenge (using stronger monster and such) is one solution. And that will work when a party is doing very well, no matter what is the reason.

But when a DM is feeling that the defense of a Defender is something to deal with, not concentrating attacks on a defender is usually a much easier solution. Even before the update, -2 penalty is not that a big penalty. While that is useful for PCs that will not dramatically change the DPR of a monster, even that of pre-update brutes. And Aegis of Shielding only reduce the damage of one hit. It will not negate ongoing damage or other rider efffects.

And also, not letting monsters concentrating fire on a defender will make combats faster and exciting. As entire party should coordinate better for not endangering non-defenders.

 

[Sunseeker]

What build are you using where all your Non-ACs are even? A Swordmage working with a fighter can be downright devastating.

Oh, we work well, but in most encounters, he's controlling the board, I'm just tanking the odd mob he can't reach, preventing damage here and there. Honestly, I don't do that much.

I don't know if it's a "build" persay, it's just how the numbers worked out.

 

[stoloc]

Even without any boost via feats, Charisma-Din's radiant damage is not bad as an automatic damage. Compare it to other auto damage such as, say, Magic Missile. At L1, Divine Challenge/Sanction is ability mod +3 while Magic Missile is Ability Mod +2. Magic Missile will gain enhancement bonus from implements. But when Symbol of the Champion's Code become available, radiant damages gain the same amount of bonus, too.

And anyway, the damage is what kills a monster and stop it for sure, reducing monster's damage doesn't. Also, minions will die with automatic damage no matter how that damage is low.

Also, when comparing to Fighter, Warden with Sudden Roots, Knight and such, Swordmage is not good at stopping opponents with his OA.

I don't say Swordmage to be particularly a bad defender. But not particularly a good defender, too. IMHO it is another OK defender.

Simply increasing the challenge (using stronger monster and such) is one solution. And that will work when a party is doing very well, no matter what is the reason.

But when a DM is feeling that the defense of a Defender is something to deal with, not concentrating attacks on a defender is usually a much easier solution. Even before the update, -2 penalty is not that a big penalty. While that is useful for PCs that will not dramatically change the DPR of a monster, even that of pre-update brutes. And Aegis of Shielding only reduce the damage of one hit. It will not negate ongoing damage or other rider efffects.

And also, not letting monsters concentrating fire on a defender will make combats faster and exciting. As entire party should coordinate better for not endangering non-defenders.

And as a Hospitaler my mark makes swarms and other mobs with aura's cry. "Auto attack on the start of your turn - no problem have some free healing whether that attack hits you or not. and Mr. Swarm take some radiant damage"

Swordmage in the same situation - "Hmm should i reduce the damage on the rogue the barbarian, the invoker or the shaman? Mr. swarm take umm..... yeah so I'm done"

If our group had any other character with an int higher than 12 and access to arcana skill I would be playing a fighter instead. I'm just hoping to tough it out until upper paragon when I can be a fairly decent aoe controller type but as for the defending ability of a swordmage I'm not impressed especially as the only defender.

 

[sigfile]

And as a Hospitaler my mark makes swarms and other mobs with aura's cry. "Auto attack on the start of your turn - no problem have some free healing whether that attack hits you or not. and Mr. Swarm take some radiant damage"

I'm a firm believer that swarms should get a Close Burst: Aura attack as an immediate action at the start of the first adjacent enemy's turn. Defenders can do some pretty stupid things to swarms because of those single target autoattacks. Still... yeah. Hospitalers will wreck swarms. Swordmages aren't slouches there, either...

Swordmage in the same situation - "Hmm should i reduce the damage on the rogue the barbarian, the invoker or the shaman? Mr. swarm take umm..... yeah so I'm done"

To be fair, you're comparing a paladin paragon path's enhanced mark punishment mechanic to the generic swordmage mechanic. If you're introducing options, the swordmage is pretty likely to teleport or push the swarm upon its first out-of-turn attack to an unfavorable spot. That attack might end up targeting the swarm's ally instead, it might just miss, or it might end up simultaneously missing and granting the swordmage a bucketfull of temporary hit points while leaving the swarm adjacent to one of the only two defender classes with a close at-will attack. If it's really unlucky, the swarm could find itself pushed/teleported off a cliff. The longer the fight against the swarm continues, though, the more favored the Hospitaler becomes.

(Dimensional Vortex | Transposing Lunge | Surprising Transposition | Countering Thunderclap | Coronal Guard paragon path)

 

[stoloc]

I'm a firm believer that swarms should get a Close Burst: Aura attack as an immediate action at the start of the first adjacent enemy's turn. Defenders can do some pretty stupid things to swarms because of those single target autoattacks. Still... yeah. Hospitalers will wreck swarms. Swordmages aren't slouches there, either...

To be fair, you're comparing a paladin paragon path's enhanced mark punishment mechanic to the generic swordmage mechanic. If you're introducing options, the swordmage is pretty likely to teleport or push the swarm upon its first out-of-turn attack to an unfavorable spot. That attack might end up targeting the swarm's ally instead, it might just miss, or it might end up simultaneously missing and granting the swordmage a bucketfull of temporary hit points while leaving the swarm adjacent to one of the only two defender classes with a close at-will attack. If it's really unlucky, the swarm could find itself pushed/teleported off a cliff. The longer the fight against the swarm continues, though, the more favored the Hospitaler becomes.

(Dimensional Vortex | Transposing Lunge | Surprising Transposition | Countering Thunderclap | Coronal Guard paragon path)

Have not played my swordmage to paragon yet (only lvl 8 while my paladin just dinged 18) so I will partially concede your point. On the other hand, I still believe with the things you've said that the pally comes out far ahead. Auto damage, auto healing whether the attack hits or misses regardless of if i' stunned or have already used an immediate interupt this round.

Swordmage things require you to be fully functional (have to be able to take those immideates or the abilities don't work) and require a to hit roll (which can let you down at the most inconvenient of times.) Even when I'm having a sucky dice night my paladin can ruin the day of the bad guys just by good positioning/targeting on my part.