D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[Cerebral Paladin]

Maybe a prolonged skill challenge, representing sneaking up, assessing the target, and then getting in close enough to deliver the killing blow (which is a normal attack roll with a big bonus). Mess anything up on the way in, and you alert the bad guys. Mess up the assessment, and your attack is just a crit, not a coup. Miss the attack roll, and you're going to just kill him the old fashioned way.

I've toyed with the idea of running an assassination by playing out a normal fight, but with the whole thing compressed in time. Rounds become milliseconds, I guess. Of course, you want to have some mechanism to allow the victim to shout and summon the guard or whatever, and I'm not clear on what that would be--maybe a time limit? You have three rounds to win the fight? (Or of course if you escape the room or whatever.) And of course, this allows assassination attempts against PCs as well--your goal is to survive long enough to get the rest of the party into the fight.

Of course, it depends on what the goal of an assassination mechanic would be. I can see three different goals from the player's perspective: (A) I want to kill the boss without having to fight through the boss's defenses (that's what my proposed system would handle); (B) I want to avoid losing hit points/resources by not actually fighting the boss; or (C) I want a different mechanic to represent the different sort of kill, to make it feel special and awesome.

For B and C, something more like a 'kill challenge or the system you proposed would be better, but I would worry that it would be either anticlimactic or create weird issues. "You approach the dragon's lair." "Great, time to try for another assassination!" "Y'know, it would be nice if you fought some battles that weren't failed assassination attempts..."

 

[Iron Sky]

How about something like:

Assassination Skill Challenge:

Complexity - depends on how challenging an assassination it is. A Complexity 1(4/3) might be a gang leader, a 2(6/3) might be a merchant with a few armed guards, while a 5(10/3) might be a noble.

Each check advances them further towards their goal, whether by climbing walls, killing guards, planning a route from an overlook, analyzing the crowds, etc. To keep things varied, the player can't repeat the same skill/attack twice in a row.

The character may make any appropriate skill check (at a level-appropriate DC), that is appropriate or an attack roll with a suitable power(against a minion with level-appropriate defenses and the PC has CA - +2 bonus to hit if they use an encounter power, +4 if they use a daily). If it succeeds, they are one step closer to their final target.

If they succeed, they get to make their attack roll against the target, at the final target's normal defenses, presumably with CA. If it hits, treat the creature as a minion(I.E. it dies). If the attack misses, it's combat time.

Failing results in being discovered early, with consequences attendant to the specific challenge (target gets away, stuck fighting a pile of guards, chase scene, etc).

[sblock=Sample Assassination]Kellin the Rogue is attempting to take out a bounty hunter that is after him and has followed him into the Herald Woods, which Kellin knows well.

The DM decides that this is a Complexity 1 challenge and asks Kellin what he's doing first.

Kellin decides he's going to use Nature to lead the bounty hunter and his posse into the woods and try to separate them. He makes a Nature check and succeeds(1S/0F). He shows himself while the group is at camp then takes off into the woods and they follow him pell-mell.

He decides he's going to ambush the next guy and uses Sly Flourish, hits, stepping around a tree, throwing a dagger, and taking out one of the bounty hunter's men(2S/0F).

He makes a Stealth check to try to disappear before the others find him and fails. The DM says he's been spotted by some of them as he flees.(2S/1F)

He makes an Athletics check to climb a tree and hide and succeeds. The bounty hunters ride past him(3S/1F).

He decides to use Piercing Strike to attack, and hits, leaping from his tree onto the bounty hunter's bodyguard, killing him instantly(4S/1F).

He's succeeded and now gets his attack on the boss. He uses Low Slash(encounter power) and makes his attack, slashing the saddle straps on the bounty hunter's horse, then ducking under the horse to pounce on the bounty hunter, putting his dagger into the man's kidney while the bounty hunter is lying stunned on the ground. Assassination complete.[/sblock]

I was actually thinking about this last week, so it's appropo that it would come up here.

 

[Markn]

I think the Assassin's Creed console game highlights a lot of great possibilities for Assassination Skill Challenges.

They often force you to scout around for the best approach path (path of least resistance), defeat peripheral bad guys before killing the main target, it often involves running-climbing-jumping-swimming-stealth, and they often recommend you killing him in a certain manner.

All of these possibilities are easy to port to D&D.

For me though, the difficulty is in how to handle failures. I suppose a single failure could lead to 1 person spotting you at which point you need to kill him quickly or hide quickly. Failure two could lead to a heightened sense of alert for the people in the area, thereby increasing the DCs and failure three is that the whole area is alerted to your presence.

Taking the concept a bit further, the assassin would then have to escape after the kill which could either trigger another SC or a series of fights.

 

[LightPhoenix]

And I think we have a fun solution, one that (a) makes Alomir happy, (b) makes me happy, (c) keeps Logan in the game, (d) is justifiable by the plot (you'll see in the next write-up), and (e) pushes the storyline forward in an interesting way. I'm really intrigued to see how it turns out. We'll report here.

That's pretty much my philosophy right there. If someone isn't having fun playing a character, that's a problem that should be fixed. In fact, someone not having fun* is, to me, the cardinal sin of role-playing. That definitely includes the DM as well. I've found most anything can be hand-waved or woven into plot, if it services the idea of fun. After all, it's a game.

* Of course by fun I mean fun not at the expense of others.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I am a little disappointed that there's no mechanic in 4e that actually lets you kill an enemy in one hit, unless the enemy is a minion. I love the system in general, but if a PC decides to undertake an assassination mission, and he Solid Snakes his way up to the pre-established-as-being-a-badass villain, I'd like rules to give him a chance to off the guy.

Maybe a prolonged skill challenge, representing sneaking up, assessing the target, and then getting in close enough to deliver the killing blow (which is a normal attack roll with a big bonus). Mess anything up on the way in, and you alert the bad guys. Mess up the assessment, and your attack is just a crit, not a coup. Miss the attack roll, and you're going to just kill him the old fashioned way.

Has anyone actually written out something like that?

I think the Assassin's Creed console game highlights a lot of great possibilities for Assassination Skill Challenges.

They often force you to scout around for the best approach path (path of least resistance), defeat peripheral bad guys before killing the main target, it often involves running-climbing-jumping-swimming-stealth, and they often recommend you killing him in a certain manner.

All of these possibilities are easy to port to D&D.

For me though, the difficulty is in how to handle failures. I suppose a single failure could lead to 1 person spotting you at which point you need to kill him quickly or hide quickly. Failure two could lead to a heightened sense of alert for the people in the area, thereby increasing the DCs and failure three is that the whole area is alerted to your presence.

Taking the concept a bit further, the assassin would then have to escape after the kill which could either trigger another SC or a series of fights.

Well, 1e had the old Assassin class with its instant kill mechanic, but as someone pointed out above that kind of mechanic has serious issues and it is notable that it was one of the biggest things 2e simply excised from the game.

Perhaps ironically 4e has the skill challenge system that provides a good structure for the action surrounding the kill attempt, but obviously doesn't have an explicit instant kill mechanic that is really always suitable.

I'd say in a lot of cases you probably CAN handle the target as a minion, but there are going to be cases where that doesn't make too much sense.

The analogy with Assassin's Creed is a good one. Obviously a game where the mechanics are pretty well set up for this kind of thing specifically. Still, slipping around in a crowd and all of that kind of stuff in AC is VERY much reminiscent of an SC and even has a pretty incremental sort of success/fail feel to it (you can for instance slip into a hiding spot or mingle with a crowd when guards start to get suspicious of you, which is very much like hitting a fail or two on an SC or just needing a number of successes).

I think an SC is a robust enough set of mechanics for this. The challenge can involve a whole set of skills, streetwise/bluff/intimidate/diplomacy to gather information and/or slip past guards or into a secure area, athletics/acrobatics to climb, move, jump, etc into position and to make the actual kill. Depending on the DM's needs other skills could be involved as well or the entire scenario could involve more than one SC. With the proper level of difficulty and interesting success/fail mechanics it should be both sufficiently challenging and be able to engage the whole party (or suitable for a solo character, etc).

The only hurdle that really exists is in the minds of the players. If they aren't bothered by skirting the usual combat mechanics then it should be perfectly fine. While it is possible the players might see this kind of thing as an easy way to get around actually confronting a difficult opponent I don't think this is really a huge problem. Either the DM can make it no easier than an outright fight or only marginally easier, or the opportunity may just not present itself at all if it doesn't fit in with the plot. A highly defended, powerful, and suspicious BBEG simply can't be done for this way, or it could require too much time, etc.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Reservations regarding the "insta-kill" mechanic aside, here's my take on it (and none of my players have seen this yet but some NPC Assassins have it)

Coup De Grace 4 - Attack 14

Daily, Martial, Weapon
Standard Action, Ranged Weapon
Target: 1 Enemy - Enemy must be Medium or Small
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 1W + Target's Bloodied Value.
Miss: No effect

Special condition/Skill Challenge
Prior to attack roll attacker makes an active Perception check against the target's most appropriate skill (DM's choice) that would prevent the assassin from sizing up the target properly. (Disguise etc.) The result of the check is hidden from the attacker who may then choose whether to use the ability.

It is possible for the target's check to be assisted by personal guard or other countermeasures.

If the check succeeds the target is considered Helpless if hit. The result will be 1W + Bloodied value and the target will die.

If the check fails the target if hit will take 1W + Bloodied value in damage but will not be considered Helpless and remain upright provided it had no other damage.

------------------------
Granted this is rough and there are other CDG powers as alluded to by calling this CDG4. However, I find this workable and within the power of the DM to control while allowing the player the chance to be cool at an appropriate level of experience.

 

[Barastrondo]

I'd be somewhat inclined to allow a skill challenge that reduces the stats of the villain accordingly, the mechanics representing what you can achieve via an advantage in preparation and surprise. It'd be something along the same thinking as "the same character can be represented by a 1st-level solo, a 4th-level elite, an 8th-level monster or a 16th-level minion", rather abstracted.

So, for instance, maybe the Duke of Pummelgratin would, if he girded his loins in his armiger's full plate of resplendence and came out to fight you with his troops, count as an elite leader. If caught with lesser arms and armor, he's not elite. And if a player goes through a difficult skill challenge, he gains minion status -- but only for one attack, after which he reverts to the appropriate stat block. Don't miss.

Hm. I've actually got an assassin in one of my games... perhaps I should run an experiment to see how to make it work.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My question would be if the Duke is a figure who's purpose in the narrative is to be an assassination target then why would he ever be anything BUT a minion? This is the thing that always drove me nuts about AD&D. There was this built in assumption that important = high level. Just because the Duke (a hereditary noble) is in charge of a fairly large operation doesn't mean that he can fight (may never have lifted a sword, though probably has basic military training). He may well be powerful and dangerous, until you get within sword length of him.

Obviously there will be cases where NPCs are both worthy combatants and one might like to assassinate them, but I suspect in general the DM can arrange it otherwise. For instance the Duke can be a minion but his guard captain OTOH is one NASTY customer. This would be a more typical kind of way for things to be anyhow. Politicians generally don't NEED skill at arms, they have other people for that, people that prefer to just follow orders and bust heads.

One of these decades this whole level = importance thing will get wrung out of the D&D mindset, though probably not THIS decade! lol. At least 4e has better tools related to that than past editions did.

 

[Rebort]

Agreed. Level doesn't equal power, but you don't get where you are by standing around and doing nothing. Unless your an heir to the throne.

If the Duke were to be a minion, the ensuing assassination attempt would have to be incredibly difficult. It would be overly anti-climactic to say "roll a stealth check, roll a perception check, now attack roll. Congrats, you assassinated him.". Obviously that's the lamest scenario possibly and anyone to do that would be shorting their players.

Personally, if its an assassination with a minion as a target, make it a module type adventure. Everything the PC(s) do effects future checks or combat. Not just a SC, but an actual adventure through a castle, city or cavern. That way your players get to experience a little more action before simply offing an important member of the campaign. And with rounds ~6-10 seconds, it could be done in 3 hours of in-game time. I'd say that is a reasonable time frame for an assassination attempt.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Agreed. Level doesn't equal power, but you don't get where you are by standing around and doing nothing. Unless your an heir to the throne.

Sure, but if you look at the way AD&D worked with its 'name level' gets you a stronghold and followers mechanics and just the general material (for example in Greyhawk ALL major figures are almost exclusively at least level 10, paragons by 4e standards) you find that level/power association is pretty well baked in. Some classes actually had it thoroughly baked in, druids and monks for instance.

Nothing says that powerful individuals are NOT higher level and you'd probably assume that most high level demi-humans are drawn from the ranks of the upper class and higher level ones might tend to be powerful figures. OTOH my point is this is not a necessary assumption and 4e doesn't assume it is true anywhere in its mechanics or fluff (though campaign settings still seem to be mostly stuck in retro-land on this point).

If the Duke were to be a minion, the ensuing assassination attempt would have to be incredibly difficult. It would be overly anti-climactic to say "roll a stealth check, roll a perception check, now attack roll. Congrats, you assassinated him.". Obviously that's the lamest scenario possibly and anyone to do that would be shorting their players.

Personally, if its an assassination with a minion as a target, make it a module type adventure. Everything the PC(s) do effects future checks or combat. Not just a SC, but an actual adventure through a castle, city or cavern. That way your players get to experience a little more action before simply offing an important member of the campaign. And with rounds ~6-10 seconds, it could be done in 3 hours of in-game time. I'd say that is a reasonable time frame for an assassination attempt.

I never said it should be easy. I just pointed out that the target of the assassination need not be depicted as a high level creature. It seems perfectly feasible to me to make the assassination a matter of other things besides how hard you can hit the guy when you finally get to him. I'd think that would be one of the lesser factors in an interesting challenge. I'm not sure what you mean by 'module like adventure'. Surely pulling off a major assassination is going to be a significant story and will probably have a decent amount of gaming involved in pulling it off. The obstacles to be overcome can be quite numerous and varied. It just doesn't HAVE to involve set-piece combat encounters is all. Creating an adventure around that theme could be done in a large number of ways.