Making superhero gear make sense (mostly Marvel related)

[Janx]

...Wonder Woman is as powerful as Superman, or nearly so, and she has a tiara, bracers, a magic lasso, and an invisible jet. Mister Fantastic is nigh-invulnerable, and carries around a ridiculous number of items, ranging from super-costumes to underwater breathing bills to whatever else he thinks he will need.....

If I had a GM who told me my hero could not carry a utility belt or have a science lab, because it's not in genre, I would laugh in his or her face. Some Golden Age supers and some Silver Age second-stringers get away with just using their powers, without specialized equipment or martial training, but it's explicitly because they are amateur crime-fighters. They are the superhero equivalent of Nancy Drew.

fair points, even the snipped parts.

I easily agree with you about the utility belt or science lab. The science lab is where the special solution is made to stop the villain's plan, or decipher a problem.

I think the key argument on not having too much gear is to avoid having a over-loaded pack mule of a PC. In theory, the PC has some general purpose stuff, and the special purpose item he brought for the mission. Rather than every special purpose item he's ever used or had associated with his action figure.

Bearing in mind, some of that special equipment was driven by the toy industry to provide reasons for alternate sculpts of action figures with special equipment, so they could sell the same character to a kid.

And I think Mr. Gadget (made up hero who uses lots of gadgets) is by nature, excluded from my concept of "limited" inventory. He's supposed to have a lot of tricks, like batman.

Reed Richards, Tony Stark, and Forge, on the other hand, maybe not.

Reed Richard's power is rubber-man. They also made him a genius, but he was that before he got his power. He justifies going back to the lab to whip up a solution to then deploy against the enemy. Or re-purposing materials into something techy and useful. The same with Iron Man and Forge.

They shouldn't be carrying a million devices to solve a million problems. The nature of their abilities lets them use local resources and a few items they do carrry to create a fantastic solution.

Wonderwoman's 5 or 6 items (and the jet isn't an item she carrries, let alone uses all the time) are things she wears/part of her costume.

a super hero should not need a backpack to carry all their "just in case" gear. A DM should not need to enforce encumbrance rules on the PCs as a matter of general practice.

That doesn't mean the heroes don't have really cool, compact gadgets on their utility belt or as part of their costume.

Like batman, their costume should act like armor, if they're not naturally impervious to mundane harm.

In theory, batman armor (being custom made and fitted) will work better, be easier to move in than soldier armor. Seriously, the crap we hand out to our soldiers is NOT the best we can do. Its the best we're willing to spend en masse. Which is not the same as what an individual would spend on themselves.

So hopefully better stated, a super hero should have "right" equipment as befits their character and need. As opposed to being Mr. Suitcase.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Tony Stark

Let's be honest here- each version of the Iron Man armor after the first is chock full of gadgetry. Besides the armor, respiratory systems, pacemaker & muscle amp systems, his suits have featured: sensory enhancers, communications suite, uni-beam, jets, repulsors, emp generators, force fields, stealth tech, missiles, and stuff I can't remember...some of which pops up as surprise solutions to the plot the writer dreamt up.

 

[pawsplay]

Note, for example, that you mention a "microtorch" instead of a "lighter." The former is genre-appropriate, because it is itself rather fantastic. The latter, not so much (although it might still make sense in certain context).

Just to clarify, I meant a small arc welder. As far as lightsources go, a small flashlight or glowstick is in genre.

The gadgets have to make sense for the character. The issue isn't heroes carrying around a bunch of superscience gadgets, it's the heroes carrying around the adventurer's kit from the D&D Player's Handbook.

Getting back to the microtorch, that's totally something I could see Batman or Mr. Fantastic using. Spiderman, not so much. If Spidey needed to set something on fire, he'd probably use some kind of flaming web fluid.

It's interesting you should mention Spider-Man, who literally wears a backpack full of equipment when he is able to prepare. In a pinch, he's been known to make a backpack out of web.

And some characters just *don't* use gadgets, as a general rule. Take wolverine. There are exceptions, of course (I seem to recall Wolverine using Iron Man's armor to fight the hulk at some point), but for the most part he doesn't use gadgets. If he has to fight in space, he'll put on a space suit that won't be destroyed by his claws, but for all intents and purposes he's still just Wolvie in space, just with a different costume.

It's interesting you should mention Wolverine, a superhero who actually goes on adventures wearing a backpack full of equipment. Sometimes into subterranean lairs. It's true, he rarely uses gadgets, others than motorcycles, Uzis, grenades, motion sensors, IR spraypaint, shuriken, compound bows, rocket launchers, handcuffs,... It's also find of funny Wolverine should be mentioned in the context of this thread considering he is literally special ops.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

Ok, here is a little intro to my game system. I've written 33 pages of stuff, mainly for my-eyes-only, and I'm trying to make it more readable for players too. Unfortunately it's not in English, so I made a quick summary of it here; please excuse me all the grammatical errors.



My Nameless Superhero System is based on three basic rules:
1. Lots of data to give a good idea for players and GM about power levels
2. No mathematics, no game-mechanics
3. Players and GM negotiate, but GM decides

First of all, everything is ranked by a number ranging from 1 to 15.
Rank 1 = Almost meaningless / Beginner
Rank 2 = Weak / Novice
Rank 3 = Normal / Average
Rank 4 = Good
Rank 5 = Excellent
Rank 6 = Olympic-level / Master
Rank 7 = Peak human / Grandmaster
Ranks 1-7 are the human range. Everything a human can possess, goes into the human range.
Rank 8 = Inhuman
Rank 8 is ment mostly for animals, that go beyond human levels, such as the strength of gorilla
Ranks 9 to 12 are the superhuman range. All levels that go beyond realism, are found here.
Rans 13 to 15 are the godly range. All levels that belong to Olympos or Valhalla, are found here.
Everything that can possibly be ranked, is ranked using the rank numbers AND either of the rank adjectives. Your Strength score shouldn’t be Master (rank 6) but instead Olympic-level (rank 6).

In overall, character sheet will accumulate quite a bit of data:
- Ability scores (Strength, Agility, Constitution, Intelligence, Intuition, Charisma, Magic).
- Every ability score have subability scores, which can be tweaked if needed. By default they are the same as ability scores. Players can create new subabilities if they wish.
- Body material. Human tissue is Weak, Rank 2.
- Armor / Body material / Constitution, which define the overall damage resistance.
- Background Keywords.
- Skills.
- Superpowers, with detailed description.
- Equipment.
- Faith Points

Armor / Body material / Constitution are perhaps the most game mechanical aspect of the game, even though it’s still isn’t one. If the damage ranking is better than armor ranking, it’s bad… And how much damage is done, depends on the Body material. If the Body material is better than the damage, nothing happens. This is why there is no reason for a bulletproof superhero to wear a ballistic vest, unless the vest is more durable then his body. Constitution is simply there to show if the superhero can stand punishment. There’s no mathematics or resolution to damage, just comparison. ”Hmm, your body is same material as wood, and you were shot with AK47 from a close range… Not nice!”

Background Keywords define the characters past, such as ”police”, ”vietnam vet” etc. If you want to do something that ordinary people can’t do (very well) but you don't have any skills for it, you can always bring up your Keywords. Keywords are set of skills and knowledge that you have but aren't listed anywhere. These skills are always assumed to be standard for a character with such background. This way you don’t have to know all the things that a vietnam vet knows. He simply knows all the logical, necessary skills when he needs them. The only problem is that Keyword assumes always the stereotype, so there are no lousy vets or elite vets. If it’s a Keyword, it’s always the average what you’ve got.

But with Skills you can always tweak it more. Since you are smart player, you can always list all the skills that a vietnam vet knows, and give them a Rank. That’s all! Or maybe it’s easier to only list what you really need and otherwise resort to the Keywords? And when you’ve got the skill and the rank, you know how good you are. Average karate skills? Grandmaster pistolero? Ok, I think it’s easy to get the idea what these guys and can’t do.

With superpowers you describe the powers, and they work like you describe them. To gather all the important data, the GM (that’ll be me) asks questions so that the power is clearly defined. Rank is also assigned to it, but the main function of ranks with superpowers is to limit the advancement of the power. Low-powered are easy to develop, high-powered are costly.

And how do superheroes develop? By performing great acts of bravery you earn Faith Point or two. With these you can buy more ranks. Higher the rank, bigger the cost.

Character Creation…
…is simple. I explain what the power level is what I’m after in my game. Would I like high-powered or low-level superheroes? The more accure I define it, the better. Then everyone simply creates their character as they please. They put all the numbers as they want. Then I eyeball that the characters are about the level I wanted, and more importantly at the same level within the group. I may ask some adjustments, and that’s all. But if someone wants to weaker than others, it’s ok. But grossly exceeding the limit is a big no-no. Overall, I check that the character are not too powerful. I tend to limit magic, psionics and powers that make certain type of adventures useless. I want to be able to offer variety of challenges.


Tomorrow I can tell you more about the campaign itself.

 

[Janx]

Let's be honest here- each version of the Iron Man armor after the first is chock full of gadgetry. Besides the armor, respiratory systems, pacemaker & muscle amp systems, his suits have featured: sensory enhancers, communications suite, uni-beam, jets, repulsors, emp generators, force fields, stealth tech, missiles, and stuff I can't remember...some of which pops up as surprise solutions to the plot the writer dreamt up.

bear in mind, I mostly stuck to the x-titles...

In Tony's case, after surviving the initial threat that he's unprepared for, doesn't he generally go back to base, and grab/build/modify the appropriate suit, then go out to face his enemy. And whether that modification is shown before its use to the reader, is a story-telling trick.

meaning, each hero has a standard load-out at the start of the adventure. If we're starting a scene media res, it's possible he's got a special load out for the situation. he goes through the first part of the adventure (act 1) which might not even be about the "real" plot, just some general heroic stuff. Then, the big surprise problem comes, and he finds he is ill-prepared, or his basic tool-set is foiled. So we see a montage as he either improvises right there, or goes back to base to prepare a clever solution. Montage completed, the hero goes forth to face his foe a second time, this time with a surprise in store for his villainous foe.

The gist is, Jarvis is NOT following Tony with a truck full of alternate IM suits, just in case. That doesn't mean Tony is ever really without A suit (take the beginning of IM2). It just means that he doesn't travel around with ALL of his potential goodies.

This pattern seems to hold true for almost all the comics or cartoons I ever saw. Especially for the ones where it had a smart character (like Peter Parker).

So PCs would have a general SOP gear list (comms, lights, fire, fasters/rope). A hero that lacks mobility would have transport and a means to climb (grappling gun). Some of that might be stowed in their vehicle

Which means for a slow scene, they can probably have access to it, for an action scene, there's no time to be digging for a rope and and soldering iron.

Other special equipment for problem solving requires a trip to base, or field improvisation by the genius on the team (Reed Richards qualifies, as he technically does not have an Inventor super power like Forge).

Heck, this even follows the crime drama pattern. Detectives don't solve the case at the crime scene. They gather clues, then go back to base for analysis and prep, before they go confront the bad guy. Wherein they show up wearing bulletproof vests and heavier firepower.

So it's not that they don't have gadgets. Its that they don't carrry ALL of them to every SCENE in the game.

 

[Cyronax]

bear in mind, I mostly stuck to the x-titles...

In Tony's case, after surviving the initial threat that he's unprepared for, doesn't he generally go back to base, and grab/build/modify the appropriate suit, then go out to face his enemy. And whether that modification is shown before its use to the reader, is a story-telling trick.
So it's not that they don't have gadgets. Its that they don't carrry ALL of them to every SCENE in the game.

Well your baseline for Tony Stark (edit) "is accurate" (/edit) for some segments of IM's history.

To name some outliers (includes mild spoilers):

- His alcohol problem had little to do with his armor -- but more just his lifestyle and personality.

- He also had business problems a lot that were due in part to his very armored creations. In some stories the fact that he has to destroy his own tech (or his own mind) is another facet to fail-rebuild-succeed.

- Also, since the 2004(ish) and then until the end of Secret Invasion (end of 2008), Tony got arguably his most major power upgrade. His armor essentially became an at-will inherent power that had passive and active modes (and it hid beneath his skin). He also became a complete cybernetic being and could control satellites and other globailized infrastructure. His intelligence and consciousness also expanded.

Even with this powerset though, he was usually the 'first man down,' due to some newly emerging/crowning villain (i.e. the arc Secret Invasion).

Even though he accrued godlike powers through his tech, a bigger badder god came along and neutralized him for the encounter (always outside of his solo series). (Thor, Sentry, the Collective, etc.)

His most recent quest was undoing all the damage that he had caused due to his arrogant use of omni-tech.

---------

To bring this back to a super-hero rpg/tech discussion. I think its well within the DM's purview to limit some types of tech, even simple everyday tech.

Suppose you're hero is fighting a villain in a big mall.

Can the hero magically find industrial strength rope in a Lady's Clothes store? Maybe ... but nonsensically. In my mind it'd make more sense for the DM to say, "Well .... rope .... you can't find enough here in the lingerie section, you might want to run out of this store and try to make it to the hardware store X distance away."

 

[ValhallaGH]

Armor / Body material / Constitution are perhaps the most game mechanical aspect of the game, even though it’s still isn’t one. If the damage ranking is better than armor ranking, it’s bad… And how much damage is done, depends on the Body material. If the Body material is better than the damage, nothing happens. This is why there is no reason for a bulletproof superhero to wear a ballistic vest, unless the vest is more durable then his body. Constitution is simply there to show if the superhero can stand punishment. There’s no mathematics or resolution to damage, just comparison. ”Hmm, your body is same material as wood, and you were shot with AK47 from a close range… Not nice!”

This is where your system will make or break with the genre.

Being tough is a requirement of every super. If you can't survive multiple gunshots then you're not a super. Why? Because in this genre, guns are for dropping chumps, not heroes.

Either guns need to be Normal, or heroes need to be a heck of a lot tougher than your summary implies. As an example, I'm running a supers game most Tuesdays; it's not 4-color but it's still pretty bright. The PCs are a heroic Killface, a size-changing scientist (kind of like Pym), a costumed crime fighter (ala batman), a teenage wizard, Dr. Who, and a self-confident bruiser with a few biker-trappings. The monster and the bruiser are both bullet-proof, requiring an anti-material rifle to have a chance of hurting them. The size-changer is sometimes bullet-proof, and sometimes merely stupid-tough. The costumed crime fighter has managed to not get seriously injured by anything, including a zombie T-Rex (mostly luck, but he's tough with light armor). The Doctor relies upon agility and a concealed kevlar vest to resist pain, quite successfully. The wizard relies upon shielding spells, but is notoriously unlucky when getting hit by bullets (it's become a running joke). All of them have survived damage on par with the 16 inch gun of a battleship, and many have survived the equivalent of being shot by an Imperial Star Destroyer with only a little damage.
They're tough, even the squishy guys, and it wouldn't be a supers game if they weren't tough.

Best of luck.

P.S. If your players hate rules as much as you've implied, this will probably be poorly received. That's a lot of numbers that made my eyes glaze for a second, and I don't mind digging through D&D 3.5, Mutants & Masterminds, or GURPS.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Can the hero magically find industrial strength rope in a Lady's Clothes store? Maybe ... but nonsensically. In my mind it'd make more sense for the DM to say, "Well .... rope .... you can't find enough here in the lingerie section, you might want to run out of this store and try to make it to the hardware store X distance away."

You, sir, have never tried to snap twisted silk. Ladies stockings, twisted into a cord, are amazingly strong.

 

[Janx]

after a bunch of snips....

I would call your points Hero Points, for doing heroic things, not Faith Points. FP should be earned in a religious game by doing acts of faith, or something. While Shepherd Book's got a point, the term Faith doesn't smack of Superheroes.

With superpowers you describe the powers, and they work like you describe them. To gather all the important data, the GM (that’ll be me) asks questions so that the power is clearly defined. Rank is also assigned to it, but the main function of ranks with superpowers is to limit the advancement of the power. Low-powered are easy to develop, high-powered are costly.

Here's where your going to have some technical trouble. I like the idea of designing the rules for each, on demand (when a player/NPC needs the power), you're still going to have some balancing issues. I would recommend creating powers/rules for some pretty standard stuff (flying, hard to hit, hard to hurt, energy blast), so you can have a scale to base other powers by. Comparing a new power to your standard 'this is what an energy blast can do and cost" gives you a measuring stick.

Also consider multi-purpose powers, varied usage powers, and evolving powers.

For instance:
Cyclops has an Energy Blast through his eyes. let's say it does 1d6 per rank, and loses a d6 of effectiveness per 100 feet. For combat, it's obvious he's just going to blast bad guys with his power until they are taken out.

Outside of combat, his control of his power evolved (through improved visor and just new ideas) to turn it into a tight beam for cutting, or a wide beam for a multi-target stun (which actually gets back to a combat usage).

Design-wise, you don't want to have to list all the rules for all the variations in usage for "can i use it this way", but they're going to come up. And that's just a very simple energy blast power. heck, I think he can even booster jump with it (as it also acts like a repulsor beam at times).

Iceman has a different track. His power is elemental. He himself becomes covered (and later made of) ice. he can make an ice slide to travel. He can shoot icicles. He trap enemies in ice, disabling them. Rules wise, his ice attack probably does less damage than Cyclops energy blast, because, he has extra abilities (mobility, hard to hurt, disable foes). Plus, story-wise, he was played up as less powerful than cyclops.

In the evolution of the comic book, Iceman kept finding new uses for his power including that he could totally be destroyed and re-coallesce. That's the kind of stuff to make sure the advancement system can support.

I think it's lame when a superhero just develops new, unrelated powers (looking at you Emma Frost). I think its cool when powers expand within their logical domain. The trick within that, is not to make the expansion start off at level 1, on a level 20 PC. After expanding from doing my 20d6 narrow blast, I don't want my wide blast to only do 1d6 total, because I only put 1 rank in it. Whereas 20d6/number of targets hit would be equivalent and appropriate.

Perhaps a way to look at it, is there is one ranking for your power category. As it goes up, it forks into what extra options it can also do, but they all operate at basically the same power level.

I see a 2 tier model, a category, and then the actual power. Within the Power is where stuff is unlocked (perhaps the user chooses which "extra" is unlocked within that power at appropriate levels.

Thus Attack, Mobility, Defense are categories, and there are powers within. The player gets X number of ranks to spend per category, thus ensuring they don't max out one to make a lopsided pony...

Kind of like how it sounds like M&M makes sure every PC has some defensive "don't get killed easily" ability.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Ok, here is a little intro to my game system. I've written 33 pages of stuff, mainly for my-eyes-only, and I'm trying to make it more readable for players too.

From what I see, why not use M&M 3e or ICONS

Also, I hate the idea of a "Magic" Stat. It seems like it will be useless or crippling. Long ago I created a houseruled extension to Mekton Zeta and included a stat that dealt with using powers. Unfortunately, the following types of comments came up when I did so:

Player 1: "I want to play a 'Flying Brick'. Why do I need Magic? I'm just Tough and Strong and can fly. Why should I keep track of magic?"

Player 2: "I want to make a 'cheddar wizard'.... is there anyway to do it without wasting half my attribute points in Magic? Seriously, is there? My character needs to be smart, intuitive, and charismatic... but I don't want to die the first time I'm attacked since I don't have enough points to spend on resistance or constitution."