[WotC's recent insanity] I think I've Figured It Out

[LostSoul]

I don't remember an AC bonus by level in 3e, except as a variant in a supplement.

Level doesn't feed into AC directly, but indirectly - through GP.

If memory serves, h.p. recovery in 3e -- both innate and magical, the latter depending on caster level -- got a level bonus. However, both resources were still basically on the old daily time scale.

GP (and possibly XP) allows HP recovery per encounter.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Level doesn't feed into AC directly, but indirectly - through GP.



GP (and possibly XP) allows HP recovery per encounter.

All very true. 3E was, to a large part, built upon the christams tree concept, and high level characters had tons of resources in their magical items. Much more than any edition before or after.

 

[Dausuul]

What specific elements are you looking for? More detailed rules for henchmen? Titles?

A game outside of skirmish-level combat.

D&D has rules for stuff out of combat, but those rules are mostly disconnected elements floating off on their own. The combat rules, on the other hand, form a self-contained, tactically interesting, carefully built mini-game. That's why 4E feels so combat-focused, despite having arguably more rules support for noncombat situations than any previous edition--it's not the absolute level of support, but the contrast between the combat rules and the rest of the system.

Skill challenges were an attempt to develop social and exploration encounters in the same way, but as written they fall pretty flat. There are very seldom any meaningful choices to be made in a by-the-book skill challenge. You pick the best skill you can find an excuse to use, and then it's all up to the dice. When skill challenges work, it's usually because the DM either a) took the basic framework and built an ad hoc mini-game on top of it, or b) successfully concealed from the players that a skill challenge was going on at all. In both cases, the DM is doing the heavy lifting. The rules are providing about as much entertainment as BECMI's rules provide for a duel between two vanilla fighters.

What I would like to see is an effort to build a more substantial framework for social, exploration, and other types of noncombat encounters. I'm not asking for anything as heavy or mechanically rigid as the combat rules, mind you. Social encounters in particular need a lightweight approach to keep the rules from bogging down the roleplaying. But I would still like to have a system which offers meaningful choices between the various skills, and which actively helps the DM construct engaging noncombat scenarios.

 

[I'm A Banana]

What I would like to see is an effort to build a more substantial framework for social, exploration, and other types of noncombat encounters. I'm not asking for anything as heavy or mechanically rigid as the combat rules, mind you. Social encounters in particular need a lightweight approach to keep the rules from bogging down the roleplaying. But I would still like to have a system which offers meaningful choices between the various skills, and which actively helps the DM construct engaging noncombat scenarios.

Can't slap you with XP, Dasuul, but...+1.

 

[Ariosto]

That's why 4E feels so combat-focused, despite having arguably more rules support for noncombat situations than any previous edition--it's not the absolute level of support, but the contrast between the combat rules and the rest of the system.

It's cool that that's why it feels that way, to you. However, I don't think that's "the" reason in the larger context.

Original D&D, Empire of the Petal Throne, Metamorphosis Alpha, etc., (mainly the emphasis in spells/mutations, magic/tech items and monsters), Top Secret, Traveller, RuneQuest, Skyrealms of Jorune ... I've met a lot of rules books with more detail on combat than on any other activity, for games that were not zoomed in on it like 4e.

Heck, even Call of Cthulhu gets more into particular weapons and weapon skills (and special-case rules for firearms, combat and injuries) than into the generally more helpful Library Use or Credit Rating.

The big difference to my eye is the method of play. It's "all about the combat" because that's how the designers designed it, the presenters present it, and the players (often enough) play it.

Dragging down everything else to taking an hour to resolve a minute of imaginary activity might be mathematically a "balance" -- but a "four-minute game day" is probably not going to be more fun for people who want adventure.

 

[Ycore Rixle]

Are you really serious? Is this really an online phenomenon for adolescents? You may be right, but seeing my step kids online, I find this very difficult to believe. "Roleplaying" of the sort you describe would be the last thing they would do online. To be honest, it's hard for me to picture today's teenagers actually doing what you describe. This is the first I've heard of this so I may not be as common as you think.

I'm jumping in in the middle here - kind of a tl;dr, sorry - but I think what Tai'Chara is talking about is boards like hexrpg.com and hprpg.net. They're popular enough that more than half, I would say, of the kids in my classroom have heard of this sort of roleplaying, even if they haven't tried it themselves.

 

[Argyle King]

I don't remember an AC bonus by level in 3e, except as a variant in a supplement. In 4e, the sum of reciprocal chances to hit seems to stay about the same, so a bonus for me is a penalty for you.

My impression is that the Powers system has a similar effect, more pronounced than Feats in 3e.

Above all, the recovery of resources between "encounters" means that attrition is not the factor it used to be.

I'm not a 3e maven, but in AD&D a 13th-level fighter might have twice the chance to score a hit vs. plate as a 5th-level one -- but get worn down to half the hit points (or less). Heck, it's possible (if improbable) that the Lord would start with less at peak. (e.g., poor avg. 3 x 13 = 39, vs. good avg. 8 x 5 = 40)

If memory serves, h.p. recovery in 3e -- both innate and magical, the latter depending on caster level -- got a level bonus. However, both resources were still basically on the old daily time scale.


... whereas in old D&D, x.p. and levels both are artificial constraints only on the particularly fantastic elements that figure in the "dungeon adventure" scheme.

If something does not earn x.p., then neither does it require them! My fighter can also be a lover, a scholar, a gentleman, a philanthropist and an intriguer regardless. He can go on to more such accomplishments even if he happens also to have hit the level limit for a Hobbit.


D&D is other games built upon different ideals.

That is one big problem here.

In 3e, the amount of resources available to a character given simply just from leveling up were greater. Your BAB increased; your saves increased, and you were (usually) given better class features. You were also expected to have a certain number of items which were of certain levels.

My point? A level 20 fighter with great cleave could instantly 'teleport' through a whole battlefield with a never ending number of attacks if the enemy army of low level followers was fighting in formation.

This was especially pronounced for mages where the difference of one or two levels could mean the difference between having things such as haste available.

In 4E, there is somewhat the same issue; however, the math of the game is structured in such a way that it takes more levels before a foe is too strong for you to handle. Likewise, 4E tends to assume less item slots are filled with appropriate level items.


As for the XP and such... well, I agree... There are games in which the concepts of levels and XP don't exist at all. As such, what my character accomplishes depends upon what the character does, and actions are not limited by those artificial constructs - whether I'm in a dungeon, on a boat, in a plane, or farming a rice field.

 

[LostSoul]

A game outside of skirmish-level combat.

I think "game" is a good choice of words.

Outside of combat, how do the mechanics respond to the choices the players make? Do they feed back into character resources? The adversity the players face? The rewards the characters earn?

I think the mechanics don't do anything outside of combat because they aren't part of the game. A successful Perception check at the right time & place isn't going to reveal a cache of treasure (character resources) that the PCs wouldn't have found anyway. You might do things other than combat because you enjoy it, but it doesn't tie into anything the system cares about (like HP, GP, the powers you have, your attack bonus, defences, etc.).

Skill challenges do grant XP, but there are issues with skill checks that cause problems when you use skill challenges.

 

[Jhaelen]

But 4E removed the story and just left the action seens.

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. If YOU removed the story from YOUR games, why is a particular edition of game rules to fault?

MY 4e games have seen an increase in non-combat scenes compared to previous editions.

Your statement might be somewhat accurate if you said that (almost all) WotC adventure modules concentrate on the action scenes. But anything beyond that is simply highly inaccurate.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

My point? A level 20 fighter with great cleave could instantly 'teleport' through a whole battlefield with a never ending number of attacks if the enemy army of low level followers was fighting in formation.

@Johnny3D3D

I dont see how-Great Cleave Just lets you use your cleave attack an unlimited times per round. Cleave lets you make an immediate extra attack if you drop an enemy to 0 or lower HP-but ONLY if the enemy is in reach, and you cant take a 5 ft step. With a spiked chain (despite the name Cleave doesnt say it can only be used with slahing weapons) I can see him clearing everything within reach in a single turn, which would look rather impressive if just ONE guy were completely surrounded.

Make for one helluva intimidate check.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#cleave