January and Beyond!

[Mengu]

I appreciate the way they are introducing these new races. It does not clutter the ecology of the universe, it's a metamorphosis, and as such makes the races easy to introduce to a campaign. I hope they come up with more in the same vein, Humans, but with a twist. This makes playing them a little easier too, without having to figure out, culturally how a wilden or shardmind would behave. Vistani and the like could have been written the same way.

The Shade mechanics are rather disappointing to me. I would have given them a minor action encounter power like Shadow Bolt (akin to darkfire), that maybe weakens the target, or makes them vulnerable all 2/5/8, or blinds them, or some other shadowy effect. They currently have nothing with significant combat application other than -1 surge. I think that's really bad (compared to say what a dragonborn gets, a breath weapon, +1 attack while bloodied, +Con to surge value). I realize for instance the Shade Warlock in compensation can traverse an open courtyard without being seen, but this is 4e! All characters are supposed to be combat competent in a balanced fashion.

 

[M.L. Martin]

And when working on the shade, I made sure to check the 1e MM2, where the shade debuted.

Did you make any use of "The Ecology of the Shade" in DRAGON #126? (I never owned the MMII, but I do remember that article, and this version sounds very similar to the expansion of the shade provided therein.)

 

[MrMyth]

I am definitely looking forward to Heroes of the Shadow, the more I hear of it. Very interested in the 'Vampire as a class' approach - I've long been waiting for a 'monster book' for 4E, and saying that it would not be too hard to do by harnassing backgrounds, feats, and paragon paths. Going the pure class route seems an even easier approach, albeit one that restricts other options. I'll be interested to see if they can pull it off.

I've always been a fan of the Shade concept. Klaus, sorry to say, this one looks rather disappointing. I like the concept of it and the flavor it seems to be going for - control over shadow, plus a connection to shadow magic regardless of class via the utility swap. And yeah, just because it is worse than other races doesn't mean I won't still play it if it fits my character concept.

But its hard to deny that, at least as the preview shows it, it is really far behind other races. I mean, the stat bonuses and skill bonuses are fine. But most races tend to get 2-3 racial benefits, of which usually one is pretty useful, and the others are minor or conditional.

For the Shade, we've got 'Counts as Shadow' (which is more flavor than anything else), 'Can Trade Utility Powers' (adds some extra options, but still leaves the Shade with the same total number of powers as others), and 'Gains Stealth for Free' - an effective racial feature, except for those classes which already gain Stealth automatically. Classes, notably, that the Shade is probably likely to be an otherwise good fit for.

In addition, we've got our racial power, which is a nifty effect - but is a Standard Action. Other races get Encounter powers which tend to be free or minor actions, and are pretty much guaranteed to have a chance to make good use of them in each fight. The Shade gets an At-Will power, meanwhile, that requires he give up his main action to use it. It might be useful out of combat, or as an escape button... but will rarely be worth using in a fight. And, even worse, again provides benefits that several classes - ones appropriate for a Shade - are already going to be providing via class features or utility powers.

All of that, on its own, would be probably the weakest race we've yet seen. One with great flavor, sure, but one whose benefits are simply worse than every other race we've been presented with. To also lose a healing surge on top of that... well, it's not the end of the world, but certainly seems a final blow to those wanting to try this race out. And, again, is unfortunate for those low-surge Rogues for whom a Shade should, in theory, be an excellent fit.

I mean, I don't know how much of the Shade is what you submitted, and how much it may have changed in editing, but the final product has some serious issues. I do hope that it receives some rapid errata once Heroes of Shadow sees print, since I don't think it is flawed beyond use - some adjustments to the racial power, and one or two decent racial features (to make up for the healing surge loss and put it on par with other races) would be enough to make it balanced in actual play.

 

[Aegeri]

In addition, we've got our racial power, which is a nifty effect - but is a Standard Action.

Actually, to add insult to injury after re-reading the power you need to spend another action to actually become hidden. It only lets you make a stealth check with just concealment/cover (including from allies) but not as the standard action. In other words you spend a standard action just to be able to make that check in the first place.

 

[Chzbro]

First, congratulations to Klaus. You should be proud to say you wrote those races. I'll wait and criticize them after they actually see print. Until then, you da man!

If -1 healing surge were really such a big deal, everyone would take Durable. Everyone does not take durable; in fact, very few people do. I think it's possible that we might be overstating the case about how "crippling" -1 surge really is.

If a character runs out of surges, he's in big trouble. He'd better find a way not to get hit. Oh, hey, shades get something like that. Or maybe a shade will want to invest in a 12 CON instead of a 10...a devastating burden to bear, indeed.

While there is certainly something to the argument that rogues get better ways to hide, there's a simple solution to that: don't build a shade rogue. I'm going to withhold judgment until I actually get to see the book, but I suspect that a shade warlock, bard, or even shadow-themed paladin might be pretty fun to play.

In my mind, minotaurs are a mechanically weak player race. So are changelings. But people still play them because they like the flavor or the image or the out-of-combat applications or whatever. Let's assume for a second that the shade is mechanically inferior to some of the other races: so what? They're still cool, and people will still make characters with them.

It's jumping the gun a LOT to declare the race unplayable before it's even been published.

 

[Aegeri]

First, congratulations to Klaus. You should be proud to say you wrote those races. I'll wait and criticize them after they actually see print. Until then, you da man!

If -1 healing surge were really such a big deal, everyone would take Durable. Everyone does not take durable; in fact, very few people do. I think it's possible that we might be overstating the case about how "crippling" -1 surge really is.

Feel free to read my game session notes on this forum from two different games. I have thus far drained the healing surges of all front line strikers three times. So much so, one player is already going to take durable (with another considering it) and in fact with the increased damage durable has become a lot more attractive. I have in fact had to put items that boost healing surges in quite regularly to keep extended encounters going. So losing a healing surge is a big deal to classes that don't have a lot of them - especially if you're in the firing line like a melee rogue, melee ranger and similar.

Additionally how many other races in all of 4E have a negative that substantial? How many have a negative whatsoever? What exactly is the shade getting back for losing a healing surge?

If a character runs out of surges, he's in big trouble. He'd better find a way not to get hit. Oh, hey, shades get something like that.

It takes a standard action to use and then you need another action to actually make a stealth check. Then you have to pray you picked the right square and the creature doesn't use his close blast 5 (or burst 5) attack to bury you anyway (or any number of other similar powers, not to mention monsters have perception too). That is if it didn't have tremorsense/blindsight/truesight making your stealth absolutely irrelevant in the first place.

As for your other comment, if the shade isn't picking classes it has stat synergy in and you're spending points just shoring up its main disadvantage, you are just getting worse and worse off.

While there is certainly something to the argument that rogues get better ways to hide, there's a simple solution to that: don't build a shade
rogue.

In other words, don't build one of the core classes that the shade actually shares stats with! Or you can make something else and then watch as the cunning sneak does what you do, infinitely better and without wasting an entire round of not attacking to do it.

Which really shows the flaw here.

In my mind, minotaurs are a mechanically weak player race. So are changelings.

In fairness neither of those are as bad off as the Shade is - they don't have a gigantic penalty for what they get. The minotaurs problem is in the scaling of the racial and that it's really only useful for characters with physical stats. The changelings problem is that they seem to completely lack any coherent support and have been utterly ignored. The shades problem starts with the race itself: It's just behind the eight ball in every single department. Unless there are some really terrific racial feats I think you're going to find this will be regarded as the weakest race in 4E - by quite a margin. It has pretty poor racial features and a really out-right bad racial power.

A couple of racial feats that say, change the racial into a minor action or maybe add a teleport to it or something would go a long way to improving it. But right now, there are numerous simpler and far superior ways of replicating what the races main feature does and better. Especially for the classes it is actually decent for.

 

[raion]

To start, I have loved the Shade as a race(?) ever since I read the Dragon article way back in the day. I am extremely happy to see Shade seeing print as a playable race in 4e, but I have to make some comments of my own..

1) -1 Healing Surge: I, for one, love this. It is a wonderful flavorful penalty for a race based around ripping yourself apart and replacing bits with foreign material. The rest of the material does not justify it, at this point.. but I'd love to see it fit.

2) +2 Charisma: I love how D&D has abandoned any pretense that people with high charisma are likable, attractive, or in any way capable of leading. I do not disagree with the stat selection rules-wise, but it makes me laugh when I think of Shade flavor through the years.

3) One with Shadow: If there is feat support for this power, I could love it. As it stands, it's flavorful, fun, and frankly underpowered compared to anything I can think of.

4) Utilities: Here's the crux. If there were at least 2 per level, and they were all at least on par with same level utilities, I would be a fan of this race. I remember the random bonuses and powers Shades have gotten previously, and this is a fantastic way of handling them. It's implied there are only 3 between levels 1-10, and none of them is impressive.

Summary:
- Give some selection for racial alternate utilities, with powers usable by a variety of classes, comparable to their utilities without having to say "flavor" to ward off bad thoughts.
- Add a feat or two which tweak One with Shadow, turning it from a flavorful exit strategy, or non-combat gimmick, into a few different solid abilities.
- Include a Paragon Path and Epic Destiny, which further advance your Shade-ness.

Shade should be a race a variety of people would want to play for a variety of classes, hampered with a penalty which would discourage them.. rather than a race people like for flavor, hampered with the same.

 

[Chzbro]

Feel free to read my game session notes on this forum from two different games. I have thus far drained the healing surges of all front line strikers three times. So much so, one player is already going to take durable (with another considering it)

WotC should be sure to only publish material that fits the expectations of your game, then.

But really, I don't care whether or not you like the race. Neither you nor your players ever need to play one. What bothers me is that Klaus posted here to share two races that HE wrote and your immediate response is "that sucks."

This has become the stock response here at ENworld to just about every new announcement there is, and it's tiresome.

As you said yourself, you haven't seen the feat support. Everything you say might be true, but then again, it might not.

Even if the shade is the least mechanically effective race (and that still remains to be seen), that doesn't mean it's the least interesting from a flavor perspective. And some people will like the flavor more than the mechanics.

George Carlin once mused, "Who's the worst doctor in the world?" After all, there has to be one. If the worst race in D&D is the changeling, but people still have fun playing them, then how bad can they really be? How about we wait and see the shade in play before we revoke its license to practice medicine?

 

[Shemeska]

Did they say anything about the product schedule shuffle / book cancellations?

 

[CasvalRemDeikun]

Did they say anything about the product schedule shuffle / book cancellations?

Nope. And judging by their current lack of communication, I wouldn't count on seeing any info either. Which is sad, because there were several books I was looking forward to.