January and Beyond!

[Jhaelen]

Can't see myself being a Shade, really, when there's Gnomes and Drow and Halflings and Shadar-Kai and Tieflings and, heck, Eladrin, who all can fill that role comfortably.

Considering I don't particularly like any of these races thematically (and outright hate some of them [drow!]), I'm looking forward to an alternative that might appeal to me.

I don't think it's a big deal, but if, in 6 months or so, WotC wonders why Shades don't have "traction," that one racial feature could be it. A penalty for choosing a race just doesn't endear that race to anyone.

That, however, is unfortunately true. If, after reading the full writeup I should have the impression they're not balanced well enough against other races and I still think I like them well enough, I'd just house-rule them.

As a DM I also tend to allow only a subset of the available races. E.g. if you're running a campaign in the Shadowfell, that's a good way to 'force' players into picking races that are in the shade of more popular choices.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's not that big of a deal, but when choosing a race, it effectively makes it a less appealing choice, comparatively. It would have to come with some powerful abilities to make it appealing again, and it doesn't look like the rest of the Shade's package (from the preview, at least) is any better than the Eladrin's or the Gnome's or the Halfling's. So the person left choosing the Shade as their race is choosing it for purely thematic reasons (which is good!), but then is getting hit with a penalty for doing something thematic vs. something more mechanically sound (penalties for roleplaying? Baaad!).

I don't think it's a big deal, but if, in 6 months or so, WotC wonders why Shades don't have "traction," that one racial feature could be it. A penalty for choosing a race just doesn't endear that race to anyone.

Comparing it to Small is pretty fair, because it's only harmful to an archetype (They both hit Defenders, and Small hits Large Weapon Users and -1 Surge hits any melee build), but I think Small has too much genre-push to make it something that the game should try and do without. The same isn't necessarily true of -1 Surge.

Anyway, it's a datapoint. Not a huge deal if one more race doesn't get used that often. Join the Gnoll pile!

Eh, Small is not such a big deal. People make a stink about it, but frankly there are plenty of fighter builds for instance you can make that aren't at all bothered by being small. You are gaining Second Chance, a nice useful +2 AC vs OAs, and have a couple of very nice useful skill bonuses. Having not played a halfling I don't know about the racial feats much, but a few of them look at least nice. The races traits go well with the likely classes they will play, etc. It is all a very synergistic package.

I'm not so sure with the shade. I think the criticisms of the mechanics have some validity. Why create a penalty where none really need exist? The racial power seems unlikely to work synergistically with the races most obvious class choices. They'll be perfectly playable and people that are really interested will not worry too much about the penalty, but there's little reason for a player to HAVE to take a penalty to do what is fun. I think that was the nut of the 'no penalties' theory that 4e started with.

I guess I'd have preferred if it had skipped the -1 surge penalty. I think without that the race as presented works fine. There isn't a lot of reason to play one as a front line character anyway, so if the idea was "hey, you're better as a guy that works from the shadows" the ability score distribution and racial powers already accomplished that. As it is it will be a fun addition to the game. If the players agree they can always waive the surge penalty just like many tables wave the small race's weapon difficulties.

 

[Jack99]

WotC should be sure to only publish material that fits the expectations of your game, then.

But really, I don't care whether or not you like the race. Neither you nor your players ever need to play one. What bothers me is that Klaus posted here to share two races that HE wrote and your immediate response is "that sucks."

This has become the stock response here at ENworld to just about every new announcement there is, and it's tiresome.

As you said yourself, you haven't seen the feat support. Everything you say might be true, but then again, it might not.

Even if the shade is the least mechanically effective race (and that still remains to be seen), that doesn't mean it's the least interesting from a flavor perspective. And some people will like the flavor more than the mechanics.

George Carlin once mused, "Who's the worst doctor in the world?" After all, there has to be one. If the worst race in D&D is the changeling, but people still have fun playing them, then how bad can they really be? How about we wait and see the shade in play before we revoke its license to practice medicine?

I can't give you xp, so I would say this. We are in dire need of more people like you on Enworld.

Nope. And judging by their current lack of communication, I wouldn't count on seeing any info either. Which is sad, because there were several books I was looking forward to.

Did they say anything about the product schedule shuffle / book cancellations?

FWIW, Trevor said 2 days ago on Twitter that he was looking into releasing a statement regarding the cancelled books.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The race is perfectly fine. It is just the base rule, that a "forced skill" is just redundant. gaining a free skill fokus for this skill...

Multiclassing this way also "sucks"

So maybe: one extra class feat, but a shade has to chose stealth would have been nicer. And maybe the encounter 2 with the at will utility switched and you have your standard race.

But when in doubt, WotC was responsible for shuffeling around some of Klauses drafts. Maybe we just miss a future update, as the community missed on some previous occasions.

It is a bit sad that WotC just has a bad hand at showing preview material. Always some important thing is missing, and this community is drawing a lot of fals conclusions. (Maybe some are right but here when in doubt i blame nerdrage for some of those clunky rules which were errated already...)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

FWIW, Trevor said 2 days ago on Twitter that he was looking into releasing a statement regarding the cancelled books.

I am so crossing my fingers For AD&D 4e^^

Advanced DMG in Monster builder, those pulled books...

too bad i am usual not getting what i want :/

 

[MrMyth]

WotC should be sure to only publish material that fits the expectations of your game, then.

But really, I don't care whether or not you like the race. Neither you nor your players ever need to play one. What bothers me is that Klaus posted here to share two races that HE wrote and your immediate response is "that sucks."

You know, I can't say I'm a fan of constant negative complaints on WotC products or activity either. At the same time, I think there is room for people to offer reasonable comments and criticism without being painted as a villain.

I'm not sure if anything more really needs to be said, and it has been useful seeing more of Klaus's thoughts on the role he saw for the race, but that doesn't change the fact that I find it a disappointing offering for a flavorful and thematically cool race. If people disagree with it, that's fine, but I'd much rather see discussion of the race itself and the reasons people like it, rather than seeing posters attacked for having given their honest opinions on the material that WotC have previewed.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

On the issue of negativity:

First, major kudos to Klaus for not reacting defensively (or worse, angrily) to the criticism.

Second, in defense of the detractors, I haven't seen any comments that were notably unfair or uncivil. We all have a right to our opinions, and the fact that Klaus is a highly respected member of the ENWorld community should not give his material immunity to criticism.

On the issue of the One With Shadow power:

It baffles me that after so much discussion of the Economy of Actions, we get a power that seems to ignore the lessons learned. Given that this is preview material, is it possible that making it a Standard Action is a misprint? After all, look at the title in the power card: One With Shadow Shade.

 

[Neonchameleon]

George Carlin once mused, "Who's the worst doctor in the world?" After all, there has to be one. If the worst race in D&D is the changeling, but people still have fun playing them, then how bad can they really be? How about we wait and see the shade in play before we revoke its license to practice medicine?

People are playing the Changeling; their main weakness is a near lack of racial feats. And there are always other feats to buy. Also in the right game the Changeling is extremely strong at low levels and still good at high levels. (Cue 'Mission Impossible' theme music). Plus the doppelganger is fluffy as anything (like the Shade).

If you want a race no one plays, let's look at Bladelings. I don't remember what their racial stats and abilities are and I don't care. Likewise Shardminds. I might use one reskinned, but that's unlikely. I care little enough about them that I forget they are there (and if I want a high-Int teleporter to reskin I think of the Eladrin).

And the mechanics need fixing from the sound of it. I don't think the -1 healing surge is as crippling as many do. But the free Stealth should have a rider that makes it skill focus if the class also gains automatic training in Stealth. That immediately brings Shade Rogues and Assassins into the game. They become the best there is at what they do. And Shades should be top tier assassins.

There's nothing preventing a gnome or halfling being on the front line. In fact gnome Charisma Paladins can be really aggravating. Mark everyone in Burst 3 then vanish. Shades can't (needing the standard action there is crippling).

What would I do if there's time to change things?

1: Give Shades "Shade Weapon" - the Shade wraps its own essence round the weapon it uses. Shades may therefore all use Ki Focusses. Not quite forming weapons out of their living bodies but close.
2: Give Shades an option to have Skill Focus (Stealth) rather than just Stealth for people who already have it.
3: Few powers are as useful as simply attacking with a Standard Action. Therefore either it becomes a minor, or it's considered a minor ability of the shade and they get something strong.

 

[Mengu]

Shade vs Eladrin

Shade gets Darkvision, Eladrin gets Low-Light
Shade gets Stealth, Eladrin gets any one skill
Both get +2 to two skills
Shade gets free power swap, Eladrin gets proficiency with Longsword, +1 will, +5 vs Charm, sleeps less
Shade is Shadow, Eladrin is Fey
Shade gets One with Shadow, Eladrin gets Fey Step
Shade loses 1 surge.

With Eladrin, I feel like I can play any class, and the racial powers (except for maybe the longsword), will come in handy. With Shade, I can't think of any class where the racial powers improve the situation. Is Rogue a suitable class for the race? Rogues have powers that are way better than One With Shadow. And they already get Stealth. So what do they gain by being a Shade? Darkvision? They could have been drow if that's what they wanted, and they would also gain a powerful encounter power.

It takes a measly background to gain access to Stealth, so the Stealth training is really not that valuable, as far as access goes. Having it as an extra skill of course is nice, but doesn't benefit the classes like Rogue and Assassin. So what is this race good for? Warlock, Sorcerer, and Wizard maybe? That's a really narrow field for a race. Even without the penalty to healing surges, the race doesn't really have enough going for it. When I look at an Eladrin, yes they make good wizards, swordmages, and warlocks, but they also make competent fighters, rogues, rangers, warlords, bards, etc. When I look at Drow, yes they beg to be rogues, assassins, rangers, but a Drow Paladin, Fighter, Druid, Sorcerer, etc. works sufficiently well.

I believe Shades need another racial feature, and a different racial power to be on par with other races. Having said that, they are not the only race that needs help, and likely won't be the last. Gnomes, Minotaurs, and Razorclaw Shifters are in a similar predicament, if not as bad. I am not fond of the "flawed races are okay as long as they are good at one or two things" approach.

 

[SlyDoubt]

I like the shade. Seems really neat. I think the abilities are flavorful and useful. A shade doesn't need to be a rogue. A shade warlock seems totally awesome. Shade slayer seems like it could be really cool to play too.

This is D&D. Just because in your campaign you feel the need to drop all your players to 0 healing surges routinely doesn't mean anyone else does. So the shade wouldn't be used in your campaign. Who cares. If it's so woefully pathetic and can't stand up to the intensity of your campaign just houserule it. I'm pretty sure you already have enough content to powergame and min-max for the next 50+ years so I don't see the problem.

The content is cool, I'm interested. Thanks Klaus, looks badass. -1 healing surge will not break a character. The abilities are cool in flavor and definitely have their uses. They're just less useful for characters who already have those bases covered. That's a good thing in my book.

'Worse' or 'weak' means absolutely nothing unless you're playing in a regulated environment like a convention or the like. If you're playing in your own home game I have trouble wrapping my head around the need for everyone to be perfectly balanced as opposed to just playing something they enjoy.

A shade won't be contributing any less to the game so what's the issue other than organized events like encounters or conventions? Even in that realm no one knows how strong the shade could actually be without knowing feats or racial paragon paths, etc.