I am beginning to appreciate some of the design decisions of 4E.

[ruemere]

A 14th level of cleric has on the order of 30 or so spells. Choosing all of them and writing down their level dependent details plus basic effects took about 2 hours, with another half hour getting summoned monster stats ready to go.

PCGen

Assembly of 14th level cleric: 3 minutes.
Spells: picked at random (usually, following most optimal trend with mandatory daily buff list and quickened buffs): 10 minutes.

Pathfinder NPC Gallery

High Priest (13th level) with Simple Advanced Template: 1 minute.
Tweak to suit your ends: 5 minutes.

Remember that both Arcane and Dvine casters can leave slots open to prepare spells during the day.


Now, if you could help me with converting Moon Giant (Creature Collection 2), then I'd be happy . This is a really nonstandard creature.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Dude, that's not classic at all - NPC and PC using the same rules is a 3e-ism and only a 3e-ism

Play older editions, it doesn't work at all like 3e.

I played BECMI and AD&D 2e too. I admit that my use of "classic" was inaccurate, but in that context I guess is enough clear... I meant "I prefer the 3e way".

 

[Stormonu]

How in the world does it take 2.5 hours to put together a spell list? People always come in with these stories about massive amounts of time required to set up encounters and I just don't buy it. Most of my encounters are run on the fly with absolutely no prep time.

The one example I'll give was when I was modifying the bad guy at the end of Bloody Jack's Gold (a DCC module). I upped him to a 16th level cleric and completely redid the spell list, using two books - 3.5 PHB & Spell Compendium (thank goodness I only chose those two, I could have certainly thrown more books into the pot). Most of my time was spent actually reading the spell descriptions to come up with a combination of spells that was truly nasty (Stone shape [to seal the exit] + raise water + summon water elementals + Desecrate was one such combo to create a really nasty trap in the treasure room). That took probably 30 minutes of reading over various spells to come across and settle on that combo, with 2-3 other combos to select as well as alternate strategies. Basically, it was carefully reading the spells that took the majority of the time. I suppose, had I been more familiar with spells it would have been quicker, but that's a lot of ground to "memorize".

Randomly picking the spells would have certainly gone faster - or had I been previously familiar with some high-level spells combos (and 4E would have probably had a "build" with that as the sole combo for faster encounter design), but it wouldn't have created such the horrified looks on my player's faces when half the party (including the wizard) got caught in the water trap.

 

[Stoat]

I Dm'd 3.5 up to 20th level, and I routinely spent 1 to 2 hours statting up NPC's. I'd say there were basically three big time sinks for me.

1. Adding templates and class levels to existing monsters. I did this by hand, and there always seemed to be a lot of redundancy to it. Frex, Add the half-dragon template. Increase the monster's strength. Now add 8 levels of Barbaian. Add two more ability increases (maybe strength, maybe constitution, maybe dexterity). Each change to an ability ripples through the stat block, so if you change strength, change BAB, Damage, some skills, etc.

2. Picking spells for spellcasters. Yeah, he'll probably only use his best three or four spells once initiative is rolled, but he'll cast all the long lasting, low-level buffs he can in advance. It's relatively easy to make a "generic" wizard, but if you want to customize your NPC, it'll take more time.

3. Picking equipment for everybody. MIC, made this less a hassle, but I was moving on to 4E by then. As with spells, it isn't too hard to do generic. But if you want to do something special, it'll take time.

That said, I enjoyed spending the time making 3.X monsters. It was a little mini-game for me. I've got less of that time now, so I'm happy to do things the 4E way.

 

[Wiseblood]

I 've seen mention of giving the BBEG insane HP's. That really only eliminates the already marginalized Martial classes. Hold Monster doesn't care how many HP's you have. In 3e Forgotten Realms my Sorcerer spammed a Dhulark's(SP) Glasstrike on the High level Vampire Wizard he survived one round. I have no idea how many HP he had. Bad guys that do not go down when you hit them gives rise to save or die spells.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I primarily play Pathfinder now, but I too like some of the monster design choices.

Particularly I like the idea of a solo monster and minion monsters.



My take for Pathfinder is that minions have not 1 hp, but have 1hp per level plus con.

My take for Solos is that they need more defenses...not necessarily more hp. This can be magic buffs, additional actions (especially defensive ones), minions or other servants, environmental terrain, etc. I tend not to change tooo much about the monster itself, and "soloize" it based on the situation.



I think it fits well with both simulationism and narrativism, in addition to gameism.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I 've seen mention of giving the BBEG insane HP's. That really only eliminates the already marginalized Martial classes. Hold Monster doesn't care how many HP's you have. In 3e Forgotten Realms my Sorcerer spammed a Dhulark's(SP) Glasstrike on the High level Vampire Wizard he survived one round. I have no idea how many HP he had. Bad guys that do not go down when you hit them gives rise to save or die spells.

I'd say that at higher levels it comes down to save or suck spells anyway as Pathfinder has pretty much eliminated save or die spells for the most part. Now it's save or lose a whole lotta HP spells. Spells like Hold Person are still a danger but for my game it was decided that we'd ape something else from 4E, a save every round (with negatives that wind down every round).

You'll also find that a properly put together fighter in Pathfinder will be able to do hideous amounts of damage at higher levels.

 

[Wiseblood]

I'd say that at higher levels it comes down to save or suck spells anyway as Pathfinder has pretty much eliminated save or die spells for the most part. Now it's save or lose a whole lotta HP spells. Spells like Hold Person are still a danger but for my game it was decided that we'd ape something else from 4E, a save every round (with negatives that wind down every round).

You'll also find that a properly put together fighter in Pathfinder will be able to do hideous amounts of damage at higher levels.

My PF Fighter certainly does. I was just covering my bases with the D20 systems.

 

[MrMyth]

I can. By the time my last campaign got up to the high teens / early 20s, I was spending a ludicrous amount of time properly statting up spellcasting foes. Game prep that took 1 - 1.5x the amount of play time wasn't uncommon.

We've got a regular anecdote in my group that is usually used to put this in perspective. In one session, the party was involved in a large scale war with dozens of factions and NPCs involved, and I statted out a mini-wargame for the players to run to resolve the battle.

The time it took me to create an entire game system for the wargame, along with individual stats for every character, NPC, and faction unit involved, was about half what it took me for the next encounter... which consisted of 4 high level spellcasters.

It took a leap of faith to stop fully statting them up and start winging half the spells. I felt a little guilty even when I was pleased with the results.

Yeah, the moment I realized that I could get away with 'eyeballing' NPC creation was an absolute breakthrough. I won't claim that it always lead to balanced results - but honestly, doing everything 'by the book' led to plenty of unbalanced encounters of its own, so I felt that the time saved (and the ability to customize villains without feeling 'required' to hunt down the right prestige class or feat to do what I wanted) was a gamechanger.

 

[Stormonu]

My PF Fighter certainly does. I was just covering my bases with the D20 systems.

I recall us chuckling when our 3E fighter commented he did more with his sword attack than their pirate galleon did with a ram.