Introductory Roleplaying Products

[JLant]

Kitsune9-

I vaguely remember Heroquest but have no experience with the game. Both it and the advanced version appear to be out of print and, unfortunately, a bit pricey. Interestingly, the IP appears to be owned by Hasbro (through MB); I wonder if the D&D design team has given it a look.

Descent has always seemed interesting (especially given its cooperative gameplay and DM-like opponent setup). After looking at a lot of reviews (on BGG) it appeared that it "suffers" from a pretty lengthy setup (not so good for the more abreviated attention span generation). I'm really looking for a series where new elements can be added to a base game to ultimately wind up in a full-fledged RPG experience, eventually shedding the board (or building custom boards out of...tiles?).

In the two Talisman expansions we have so far (the Reaper and the Dungeon), new elements are gradually added to alter potential victory strategies. Nevertheless, there is still no DM/GM role that I can see.

-Jim

 

[JLant]

nedjer-

Ravenloft *is* a bit on the steep side pricewise (though I've bought some of the miniatures for D&D purposes). It does get a reasonable share of love but there appears to be an equal number of detractors pointing to its "grindiness". I thought Betrayal at House on the Hill sounded a bit more interesting; do you (or anyone) have experience with it?

-Jim

 

[nedjer]

nedjer-

Ravenloft *is* a bit on the steep side pricewise (though I've bought some of the miniatures for D&D purposes). It does get a reasonable share of love but there appears to be an equal number of detractors pointing to its "grindiness". I thought Betrayal at House on the Hill sounded a bit more interesting; do you (or anyone) have experience with it?

-Jim

I'd probably enjoy Ravenloft, but not so much my players. I'll check out Betrayal at House on the Hill

Forgot to mention a 'go to' total starter, the truly awful, but wonderful, Dread Pirate. Big on props, low on skill and an easy link to some basic RPG piracy.

The system never seems to matter much with pirates - it's like everyone goes into Treasure Island mode, but nobody realises until you mess your hair up and offer them some cheese.

 

[Jhaelen]

Nevertheless, Talisman was able to effectively compete (even more of my son's classmates have picked this game up). Why? Some things I can think of:

1. It is pretty (nice, high quality board and unpainted but nicely sculpted minis).
2. It is fairly contained (the rules are pretty short and the options are on each discrete character card)
3. There is a clear winner in the end.
4. It is finite - usually a "base" game finishes within two hours.

What do the rest of you think? Also, it seems MtG is also able to effectively compete in the "modern" world. How can the features of these successful systems be incorprated into an introductory RPG product that ultimately will bridge those new to the hobby into more complex systems like M&M, D&D, Pathfinder, SW, Dark Heresy, Eclipse Phase and all the other great stuff out there?

They can't. Or maybe they can but shouldn't.

What MtG and your Talisman item 3. (which I bolded) have in common is that they're competitive games.

Roleplaying games are cooperative games.

They're as different from each other as fire and water. Once people who 'play to win' join an rpg group the game group's days are counted. It's a death spell for an rpg. You will not win over such a player under any circumstances, they just don't see the point of a cooperative game.

The reverse is usually just as true. RPGs simply have a different target audience. And that's a good thing in my book.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'd start with Wushu*, Dread, Dread House**, or Dogs in the Vineyard. All are rules light, build the game through the mechanics, and therefore are inherently fun. Or possibly Castle Ravenloft at the board game end of the spectrum.

* If I were to play supers I'd use Wushu rules...
** I know it's a boardgame - but it's not as abstract as the others.

 

[nedjer]

They can't. Or maybe they can but shouldn't.

What MtG and your Talisman item 3. (which I bolded) have in common is that they're competitive games.

Roleplaying games are cooperative games.

They're as different from each other as fire and water. Once people who 'play to win' join an rpg group the game group's days are counted. It's a death spell for an rpg. You will not win over such a player under any circumstances, they just don't see the point of a cooperative game.

The reverse is usually just as true. RPGs simply have a different target audience. And that's a good thing in my book.

Technically, yeah. But Descent has one of a few approaches to largely collaborative boardgames and many of those named can be played in a pretty collaborative manner; even on the basic level of taking an interest in other players' progress and cheering them on

Have to agree that this is preferably a one way thing, from boardgame to not taking boardgame rules too seriously, to RPG. As competitive RPG play is deeply tiresome.

 

[jcayer]

My 7 year old has been watching my 4E group since she was 4 or 5. She's sat at the table and we've had some very loose sessions for an hour or so. She's not ready for 4E, I've known that from the start. Too many powers, to much time between turns.
We've done some AD&D esque attempts and that seems to work better for her. She gets a few spells or abilities and that is all she needs. Her imagination is amazing compared to most. There was an incident where we were using the poster map from the red box and she says, "I climb up the rock pile and push a big rock on the monster." I had her roll, but it didn't matter, it was cool and outside the box and something none of my players would do.

My 4 year old is also starting to show interest, but I think anything outside just rolling a die or 2 at a time is all she needs.

I have been considering SW, especially for the older one. There is so much flexibility there, without too many rules.

 

[MortonStromgal]

What do the rest of you think? Also, it seems MtG is also able to effectively compete in the "modern" world. How can the features of these successful systems be incorprated into an introductory RPG product that ultimately will bridge those new to the hobby into more complex systems like M&M, D&D, Pathfinder, SW, Dark Heresy, Eclipse Phase and all the other great stuff out there?

I think you have to pick a game they like. I played D&D first but it didnt get me into the hobby. I became more interested with Traveller but still not a regular thing. Then I played Shadowrun (1e) and I was hooked. The cyberpunk elements and deadly combat spoke to me. I game with a guy (much younger than I am) with a similar story but his hook was Vampire: The Requiem. Some people just aren't interested in minis or playing an elf.

 

[nedjer]

My 7 year old has been watching my 4E group since she was 4 or 5. She's sat at the table and we've had some very loose sessions for an hour or so. She's not ready for 4E, I've known that from the start. Too many powers, to much time between turns.
We've done some AD&D esque attempts and that seems to work better for her. She gets a few spells or abilities and that is all she needs. Her imagination is amazing compared to most. There was an incident where we were using the poster map from the red box and she says, "I climb up the rock pile and push a big rock on the monster." I had her roll, but it didn't matter, it was cool and outside the box and something none of my players would do.

My 4 year old is also starting to show interest, but I think anything outside just rolling a die or 2 at a time is all she needs.

I have been considering SW, especially for the older one. There is so much flexibility there, without too many rules.

Allowing her to play her own way, allowing creative 'outside the box' solutions and speaking in awe of someone who plays with their imagination sat firmly on top of the rule book - stop now before it gets worse

You're teaching the child to think for herself, make her own considered opinions and to have her views taken as seriously as those of an adult, or even, dared I say it, a man child

Quick! Issue a full set of Warhammer 40K rules and a requirement to paint 14 Orc War Machines before play begins. There is a danger this child could become an independent thinker instead of a FLGS owner