Ultimate Combat Playtest: Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai

[Kaisoku]

What if you're wrong, and people have scrutinized it carefully? Do you think they might feel annoyed by your comment?

Considering the people talking about the class that I'm referencing are completely neglecting to mention whole features, I think the onus is on them for giving the impression that they aren't reading through the class.

I'm sorry if I annoyed you with my comment, but I'm only able to respond to what you posted: "I don't see what you're getting beyond a new Cavalier order, plus a slight variation that gives fighter-like specialization abilities."

I'm not sure what other impression I was supposed to get from that.

 

[1Mac]

Fair enough, but earlier in this thread, as well as in others on Paizo's boards, replace is the term being used.

I only said "replace" because that's the word used in the intro of the playtest doc. I meant it in the sense that an alt class replaces a base class for a specific player.

Alternate classes are really a great idea because they isolate some issues that might arise and conflicts with class direction/function being unique. Really everything should follow this format from here on out.

This is a really good point. I hadn't thought of alt classes as a way of expanding class ideas while avoiding rules bloat.

 

[SlyDoubt]

Considering the people talking about the class that I'm referencing are completely neglecting to mention whole features, I think the onus is on them for giving the impression that they aren't reading through the class.

I'm sorry if I annoyed you with my comment, but I'm only able to respond to what you posted: "I don't see what you're getting beyond a new Cavalier order, plus a slight variation that gives fighter-like specialization abilities."

I'm not sure what other impression I was supposed to get from that.

They're very distinct and share almost nothing with the cavalier beyond the traits that allow him to fill a similar role (though in a totally different way). Last I checked the cavalier doesn't regain points by winning challenges and use those points to make himself ridiculously resilient.

So like Kaisoku said, you should probably read or at least give some more information as to what makes the samurai uninteresting/not unique.

 

[pawsplay]

He's nothing like a cavalier except in base function (challenge mechanic, has a mount, gives morale bonuses).

Yup, we entirely agree. He is nothing like a cavalier outside of all the abilities and traits they have in common. Or the fact that you could play a Cavalier as a samurai, or a Samurai as a cavalier.

 

[pawsplay]

Considering the people talking about the class that I'm referencing are completely neglecting to mention whole features, I think the onus is on them for giving the impression that they aren't reading through the class.

I'm sorry if I annoyed you with my comment, but I'm only able to respond to what you posted: "I don't see what you're getting beyond a new Cavalier order, plus a slight variation that gives fighter-like specialization abilities."

I'm not sure what other impression I was supposed to get from that.

That I read the class and briefly touched on its most important characteristics in a way that let others know what to expect?

 

[Cergorach]

Any real-life gun instructor will warn you against shooting traffic signs and garage doors, much less a contoured steel plate. You'll shoot your eye out, kid.

I would like to point out that 'steel' like we have now and plate armor from the middle ages aren't of the same quality. Also keep in mind that early on armor wasn't made to withstand bullets (or arrows/quarrels) from short range, this eventually changed. But I seriously doubt that firearms have insinuated themselves so much in D&D society that the plate mail is bulletproof. Look it up, wikipedia mentions it, they talk about short range. The first increment for pistols is 20ft and after that there are serious penalties, -2 for each additional 20ft. Also, a real-life gun instructor will warn you against shooting people and pets (aka. Monsters), so how much that impacts your gunslinger... ;-)

This is also the game where when you aim for the head, you hit the head, you only do a (little) damage and might stun someone for a round. So reality might be far fetched for RPGs anyway ;-)

Also, why a specific Ninja/Samurai class? Simple there's a lot of power in a name, Ninja/Samurai are iconic for asian (fantasy) RPGs. Just using the Rogue/Cavalier class, and calling them Ninja/Samurai doesn't do 'it' for a lot of people. You could ask yourself, why do we need a Ninja/Samurai class, simple, because a lot of folks do want it because their iconic for asian (fantasy) settings. Also, their not filling a 256 page book with these three classes, it's a relatively small section, if they fill 10% of the book with these classes (and directly related material) I'll be greatly surprised.

If you don't like them on principle, don't play (test) them. If you don't see the need for separate classes, again, these classes are not for you.

 

[pawsplay]

I would like to point out that 'steel' like we have now and plate armor from the middle ages aren't of the same quality.

That's true, but I suspect a mass-produced street sign and a carefully crafted breastplate are in the same neighborhood. In fact, the breastplate is probably higher carbon.

 

[Dragonblade]

I love the classes. As an anime fan, I'd love to make them even more over the top, but I think Paizo found a nice balance of making them cool but generally on par with the core classes.

I love the gunslinger in particular. Very cool and everything I ever wanted out of a gunslinger class in a d20 game. In contrast, while I loved the IK setting, I despised their d20 gun rules and their schizophrenic attempt at making some low magic gritty game which didn't in any way reflect the cool and over the top artwork and high magic feel of the miniatures game. Paizo nailed it.

The ninja and samurai are both well done and hit the right notes for me. I like the samurai's challenge and the ninja's blend of rogue and monk abilities.

I could see some minor balance tweaks but I think the classes are already pretty solid as is.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Speaking as someone who has fired mediaeval weapons - yes, armor works against big, soft, slow lead balls. An exception is chainmail, which comes apart, with the links driven into the flesh. (We used a dead pig.)

The ball will penetrate soft leather, but goes less distance into the meat, so the armor still qualifies.

Plate armor was not invented until after the gonne. It was often 'proofed' - the armorer taking ten strides from the armor then shooting it with a pistol. Source of the term 'bullet proofed'.

If you really want to see something penetrate armor then shoot a crossbow - a square headed bolt will be buried to the fletching in the pig. It pretty much ignores chainmail.

A hangonne/arquebus is faster to load and fire than a heavy cranquin wound crossbow, but penetrates less and has a much shorter range.

And, for the record, on a foggy day blackpowder weapons stink like the Devil's own flatulence.

Gamers vastly overestimate the power of the early guns, but also vastly over rate the rate of fire of a heavy crossbow. Guns won out not because of their relative power but because of ease of training and rate of fire. The longbow took time to train (if you want a longbowman then start with the grandfather) while crossbows were easy to learn, but slow to fire. Gonnes were a compromise.

The Auld Grump

 

[SlyDoubt]

post

Cool info/history. Thanks. Some I knew some I didn't.

On the topic and relevant to the post:

It's a fantasy game unfortunately. Verisimilitude is important to a degree but I think the idea or flavor of firearms in a fantasy setting needs to be strong for them to have any reason to exist. Like you said the main reason firearms took off is ease of use. In an RPG that means absolutely nothing, every PC is already above average so how else can firearms be distinguished? Absolutely crossbows SHOULD be armor piercing but for balance they aren't.

I guess really firearms should be simple weapons.

Let's assume though that since this is a fantasy game and Golarion is a fantasy setting that the firearms there are stronger than what we know. Maybe the bullets are made of denser harder material. Maybe their form of gunpowder is even faster burning, I don't know. You get my drift though.

They need to be distinct from bows and I think the armor piercing idea at close range is interesting and different. I like it although I well know it isn't necessarily realistic.

It's annoying to sometimes err on the side of fantasy and sometimes not but I personally can let it slide in this case.