Essentials feat too powerful???

Superior Will -- start of turn save against Stunned or Dazed, even if it's not a (save ends) effect -- on top of +2/3/4 to Will.

Level 16 Circlet of Arkoshia(SP?) does nearly the same thing but lets you ignore them outright AND save at begining and end of turn (its uncommon too :eek:). Also, humans have feats that give bonuses to stunned and dazed pre-essentials.

Superior Fortitude -- reduce ongoing damage by 3/6/9 -- on top of +2/3/4 to Fortitude.

At least now the feats GOOD and worth consideration.

Resilient Focus -- +2 feat bonus to saves, including those against death, ongoing damage, conditions, being forced into hindering terrain, being knocked prone (for dwarves), and probably some other things.

They took a group of feats that no one in their right mind would take before and made them into one feat people MIGHT think about taking.

Combine Resilient Focus with Superior Will, and a regular "save ends" Stunned will be over before the start of the next turn 95.7125% of the time. (To fail, must roll 7 or lower 3 times - SoT 1, EoT 1, SoT 2.)

Not many builds can sack two feats without some serious thought on what they are loosing. I only see someone who is defense centric doing this and not the power gamer playing an optimized build or the RP player who takes character driven feats doing this often, if at all.

Combining Cunning Stalker (HotFK) with the feat Opportunistic Withdrawal (PHB3, paragon) allows a great many quick escapes (see diagram). The PC (X) is flanked by two enemies (E), each of which has no creatures adjacent to them other than the PC, so the PC has CA against both. The PC can walk to squares 1, 2, and onward without taking an OA, courtesy of Opportunistic Withdrawal.

-----
-EXE-
--1--
--2--

Very situational and the player will probably get dropped in combat multipile times for running off alone. (As said before)


All the developers did was to take feats NO ONE was taking and made them so people might actually THINK/CONSIDER taking the feats. Its like the elimination of daily power usage for items. At least now the items with decent daily powers are more of a consideration than they were before.

*golf clap for the developers*
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Essentials Feats are largely more powerful than most feats before them.

This is a good thing, since most feats before them were like someone was handing out free candy, only the candy was all Bit-O-Honey and Necco Wafers. Sure, it's technically candy, but you're going to have more fun throwing them at your little brother than you will eating them.

Similarly, you're going to have more fun throwing the books that contain these feats at your little brother than you will have fun using them in gameplay.

And the Expertise feats are like someone handing out "healthy fruit" instead of candy.

In summation: WotC is a bad place to visit on Halloween.

Or, at least, they were, until Essentials came and it was like they suddenly discovered what the hell chocolate was.
 



What I actually want to see is errata to RETIRE the lame, mis-conceived and superceded pre essentials feats. Cut that stupidly long list down.

Viva la-Essentials Feats!

In some places, they errata-ed the old feats into upgraded Essentials versions.

For the rest... well, you can ban pre-Essentials feats if you like. Personally, I see no need. Just point at the old Player's Handbook and explain to your players that

images


[size=-2]Admiral Ackbar is out sick today.[/size]
 

Regarding my list of feats above, and the responses to them:

I *like* those feats and combinations. I'm not saying they are overpowered, but they are better than those that came before, and not getting the notice that they should.

I've used those feats in several encounters and they have saved PC lives THREE times. That's in just a few months of play.

I'm not sure why anyone would compare a level 16 magic item with a feat that can be taken by many characters at level 1, but if you must make the comparison, the Circlet loses badly. Superior Will does everything that the Circlet does AND allows the extra save even against "end of turn" effects AND grants a +2/3/4 bonus to Will. I'd grab the feat in a heartbeat and save my level 16 magic item for a +4 weapon -- unless you can find me a Heroic Tier feat that gives a +4 to attack and damage?
 

When feats came out in 3E, my first impression was:

"oh oh. They've opened Pandora's box and it'll never be closed again."

The issue with feats is that they are never good enough. There is a significant "entitlement" mentality within the D&D community that something isn't cool unless it is new and shiny and more powerful than last time.

So, as time passes between first publication and transition to the next edition, the rules change -- that's your beef?

Well guess what? The same thing can (and does) happen with classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, weapons (superior), armor (masterwork) and magic items. Back in 3.x, it happened with prestige classes AND with skills -- by merging skills, some became more useful.

Feats are the best thing about 4e. The first set, published in 4e, was kind of lame, but they have been improved greatly. Yay for WotC!
 


So, as time passes between first publication and transition to the next edition, the rules change -- that's your beef?

Well guess what? The same thing can (and does) happen with classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, weapons (superior), armor (masterwork) and magic items. Back in 3.x, it happened with prestige classes AND with skills -- by merging skills, some became more useful.

Feats are the best thing about 4e. The first set, published in 4e, was kind of lame, but they have been improved greatly. Yay for WotC!

Did I say that I had a beef with rules change? Nope. I only have a beef with the newer material as an edition matures having more power and utility than the older material.


What is so wonderful about most feats? Many of them are just plain meh, but players more or less feel required to take some of them anyway.

Players of spell casters often take Leather Armor or Unarmored Agility. They don't do it because the feat is cool and "the best thing about 4E". They take it because they feel that it is required for PC survival. The game designers put together a game system with a rough delta of 6 or 30% (hit 35% of the time to hit 65% of the time) between good AC and bad AC, so the player feels required to minimize that major PC weakness.

Ditto for feats like Weapon Focus. Players of many melee PCs for years now have taken it. Now that there are some better damage feats, the more "in the know" players are starting to shift away from it a bit.

But, Weapon Focus isn't cool.

It's just a game damage option. Nothing really that cool about it.

The Expertise feats are the same way. A little bit more cool now that Essentials has come out, but nothing more than just another to hit option.

Yawn.


And, there are over 3000 feats now. Most of them are crap or meh at best because feats are a major part of the "PC vs. NPC arms race" (feats and items are a major reason why monster damage had to be increased). Players do not have time to search through 3000 feats. It's overkill and the point I was making earlier. Once you open Pandora's box, it becomes a nightmare to use and control and balance.

People even have an extremely hard time creating a 4E PC without using Character Builder. It would be very difficult if a given player did not have CB (either offline or online) to list his options.


A major issue with feats is that they are not always well balanced. The reason we have errata on feats is because the designers don't have a set of "meta-rules" on what should and should not be put into a feat.

For the last year and a half plus, the push has been for feats that give a (sometimes conditional) bonus on "to hit".

When 4E first came out, the designers said that they weren't going to create bonus to hit feats because to hit bonuses are one of the things that led to uberness in 3E. A few years later, we are back in the same "bigger, better, badder" to hit feat trap that 3.5 had.

In Essentials, some first level PCs now hit on a 4. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Bigger, badder, better has swamped some aspects of Essentials options.


And, you are correct. The same thing happens with powers (over 7500 now), classes, and items (almost 9000). The design team doesn't have good meta-rules or guidelines on certain game mechanics to stay away from. So, we get re-roll features and to hit bonuses based on ability modifiers (instead of a set +1 or +2) and the game becomes unbalanced when the optimizers get ahold of it. And with the Internet, everyone is now a decent optimizer because all of the best tricks are there for everyone to find.

So yeah, Essentials feats are in some cases cleaner or cooler, but a lot of them are just more powerful.


The same thing happened with some original feats. Wintertouch and Lasting Frost have no real nice in game explanations, they are just a way to rig the game mechanics to throw out more damage than many other options. They shouldn't even exist in the feat list. Why exactly is the Frost Giant now vulnerable to cold? Oh yeah, because the Frost Weapon is colder in this PC's hands than it is in some other PC's hands. Err, ok. Whatever you say. Ignore the man behind the curtain.


Personally, I enjoy feats like Vistani Heritage a lot more than Expertise or Weapon Focus.

3E at least has some feat chains where the player had to dedicate some feats (of which he had fewer) to get the really powerful stuff.

Now with Essentials, the really powerful stuff is handed out at real low level with virtually no requirements. Any PC can have the potent stuff because all players are entitled to it. So yeah, getting back to the OP's question, many Essentials feats are too powerful and the trend to have potent feats without any requirements is in my opinion, a game design flaw.

Note: I understand the complaint that having a feat requirement means that some players feel the need to plan their PC out to the nth degree, but I find that complain to be disingenous. Low Dex PCs shouldn't be able to juggle their weapons in cool dextrous ways IMO. If you pick a low Dex PC, there should be feats outside of your ability to gain, etc.
 

In Essentials, some first level PCs now hit on a 4. Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Bigger, badder, better has swamped some aspects of Essentials options.

Rogues were doing this for a long time.

Piercing Strike.

+5 Dex +1 rogue talent +1 Expertise +3 Proficient +2 CA (most rogues should have this all, or substantially all, of the time) = +12 vs Ref at level 1. Assuming NADs are approx. level+12 = 13 Ref for most level 1 monsters, the rogue is hitting on a 2+.
 

Remove ads

Top