Climactic Sacrifice of PCs

shadzar... I think the point Umbran was getting at and what others were agreeing with, is that some game systems actually give you a format on how to accomplish Rule Zero, rather than just saying that you can do it.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is really all the point Umbran was trying to make.

OOOOH!

Well, I haven't experienced them as I don't need them. I am not stuck with just RPGs as hobbies nor need to play tons of them. So I have one that works, and when not doing it I move on to one of the many other hobbies I play.

Being D&D a my focus, I can only speak of it. When someone says "D&D doesn't allow" I am going to be very confused at the factually incorrect statement. when they mean "Game G makes it easy for or denies the player from creating magic like this so the GM can fit it in."

But my response would be, good for those games, it can still be done in D&D.

Maybe this thread wasn't about a D&D game, don't remember at this point. :blush:

A Scorching Burst does 1d6+INT fire damage in an Area burst 1.

:confused: Not in any that I have played. :D

Herein we find different versions of D&D capable of different things, so which version is the OP talking about agian, if in fact it is D&D?
 

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No, I am not. I don't think you fully understand my claim.



I never said that D&D doesn't allow it. I said that it isn't explicitly part of the system as written. There are no solid rules for designing new effects (spells, powers, class abilities, skills, or what have you) that the players can expect to hold, or depend upon as part of a plan. It is a matter of GM fiat.

So, when playing D&D, is it the GM who allows or disallows it. The game doesn't enter into the process of designing the effect.

I am not even sure how, or IF you allow players to make spells. Here is how it works near me:

-Player wants a new spell and writes it up
-DM looks at it to make sure the level and power is right and adjust the level up if too powerful for the level, or down if he thinks it could work at a lower level than written.
-DM also can decide to just say no to it due to MANY various reasons of it being overpowered, too silly, whatever; within reason.
-Player makes needed changes, resubmits (sounds a lot like the publishing business)
-DM looks again most likely accepts if it wasn't rejected to begin with.
-DM looks at spell research to tell the player how long, how much it will cost, etc to research this spell
-Player decides if they want to spend that time/money doing so. The player likely already looked at the spel research rules when making the spell to present to the DM the first time.

TADA! new spell.

What you are asking for is rules for magic. D&D has the approach that magic can do anything. This leaves the game open for ALL playstyles. Yours where the players aren't allowed to just make things since you and them have no rigid rules for which to say what elements magic can have, and mine where magic can do anything, even autoerotic things that I do NOT wish to discuss...

You see your need for a rule as being a reason it cannot be done. I like how people throw out PAGE 42 for 4th edition, but ignore those such things in past editions.

All of which provides the tools for the job. You just want a precision tool without having to dig into your personal toolset for it, while others find the tools provided augmented very easily by digging in their personal tool set for the right tool for the right job.

Also you keep saying DM allows it, DM allows SPECIFIC spells, not the ability for players to CREATE spells. The game in nearly every incarnation has had the ability for both DM and players to create spells for verisimilitude.

You just don't want to use the tools provided as seeing them not adequate. I can appreciate that. I can't appreciate that the claim extends to ALL players and DMs.
 

I'm an idiot, so I'll bite.

I am not even sure how, or IF you allow players to make spells. Here is how it works near me:

-Player wants a new spell and writes it up
-DM looks at it to make sure the level and power is right and adjust the level up if too powerful for the level, or down if he thinks it could work at a lower level than written.
-DM also can decide to just say no to it due to MANY various reasons of it being overpowered, too silly, whatever; within reason.
-Player makes needed changes, resubmits (sounds a lot like the publishing business)
-DM looks again most likely accepts if it wasn't rejected to begin with.
-DM looks at spell research to tell the player how long, how much it will cost, etc to research this spell
-Player decides if they want to spend that time/money doing so. The player likely already looked at the spel research rules when making the spell to present to the DM the first time.

TADA! new spell.

I don't think anybody disagrees with this process. You seem to imply that in YOUR game it can be done quite quickly. It's been my experience that this process should take several real-time days or weeks to design, review and approve a new spell created by a player.

Furthermore, at least with 2e, spell creation took considerable game time.

I suspect that a majority of D&D gamers agree with my assessment of how creating spells works.

As such, for MOST D&D gamers, creating a spell on the fly to solve the problem and save the day is not going to happen. Because there is not enough in-game time, nor enough real-time. As with the house-rules screws up games thread, a good GM doesn't approve new stuff like a spell without time to think about it. Which ain't happening in the middle of the game.

This is WHY most of us are pondering what you're getting at. Because for most tables, following the standard rules for spell casting and spell creation, it's not a viable solution to write a new spell to solve the problem.

What you are asking for is rules for magic. D&D has the approach that magic can do anything.

False. D&D, as published with the standard Vancian magic system requiring memorization for most classes, or a restricted spell list for other casting classes (wizard and sorceror respectively) has a very rigid magic system.

If you don't know the spell, you can't cast it. until 4e, you couldn't cast it if you didn't note that you memorized it that day (further limiting you).

And most spells have a very codified set of effects. Sure, effects like buffs can stack. But a fireball does level D6 damage to a certain area. That's it.

There are other games, and even replacement magic systems (Elements of Magic lets you create spell effects and combinations on the fly, as I understand it).

This leaves the game open for ALL playstyles. Yours where the players aren't allowed to just make things since you and them have no rigid rules for which to say what elements magic can have, and mine where magic can do anything, even autoerotic things that I do NOT wish to discuss...

Then it sounds like you're playing with an alternate magic ruleset than the stock one that ships with D&D. Arguing with people as if they were the same system when they are not is confusing and misleadiing.

You see your need for a rule as being a reason it cannot be done. I like how people throw out PAGE 42 for 4th edition, but ignore those such things in past editions.

All of which provides the tools for the job. You just want a precision tool without having to dig into your personal toolset for it, while others find the tools provided augmented very easily by digging in their personal tool set for the right tool for the right job.

Also you keep saying DM allows it, DM allows SPECIFIC spells, not the ability for players to CREATE spells. The game in nearly every incarnation has had the ability for both DM and players to create spells for verisimilitude.

You just don't want to use the tools provided as seeing them not adequate. I can appreciate that. I can't appreciate that the claim extends to ALL players and DMs.


Dude, you started this way off topic tangent. There's nothing wrong with your playstyle. But your tone since the beginning has had hints of antagonism. Based on your responses, each one seemed like YOU didn't listen or ignored points the other was making. What I smell is that you don't play the way most of us do. You are probably a minority on that playstyle of the D&D ruleset. The way you keep calling people out implies that we all need a lawyer to safetey check the way we phrase things just to avoid offending you. Thats disrespectful.

Nobody should have to preface every sentence with "In My game..." And most of us assume there is some variance in playstyles. However, it is also reasonable that each reader realize when they are in the MINORITY of viewpoint and most generalizations don't apply to them nor are they targeted at them.

Meaning, when folks like me said "Players aren't going to be creating spells on the fly to solve this problem" we were generalizing the experience for what we percieved as the majority of D&D tables. And statistically, we're probably right. If your table works differently, great. But don't go getting all bent out of shape because nobody else plays that way.
 

I think the point Umbran was getting at and what others were agreeing with, is that some game systems actually give you a format on how to accomplish Rule Zero, rather than just saying that you can do it.

You are absolutely right in that D&D has a Rule Zero - the DM can do anything he wants and make any rules in his game as he sees fit that work best for the story. And with Rule Zero

<snip>

However, I think we can all agree that the D&D rules do not tell or show a DM how this could be accomplished.

<snip>

However, other roleplaying game systems actually do include rules in them on how a DM can do this very thing-- combine or create completely new effects... how much damage or effect these things can have... and how to set target numbers or difficulty classes to determine whether they are successful.
Agreed. The only thing I'd want to add is that 4e's notorious page 42 does go someway towards this - it has DCs and damage values, but still leaves range and non-damage effects for the GM to fiat.
 


Yes you are!, but it was a good post.

I think these two are different:

*Player sacrifices PC to placate or appease an enemy.

*Player sacrifices PC to save the party or the world from the threat that PC will pose in the future.

The latter intrigues me. I hadnt thought of it and it seems obvious once stated. I like those kind of ideas.

The former puzzles me. I should like to see an example that plausibly illustrates the player being motivated to placate a BBEG by sacrificing, rather than killing it.
 

Janx, the "placate" scenario may in many cases ultimately be the same as your "seal away a demon" scenario, or perhaps your "hold them off" scenario. Part of what I had in mind was that the flavour difference, and so the surrounding circumstances and motivations, might be quite different.

The closest actual play example I have, which is what made me come up with the suggestion, isn't itself quite a case of PC self-sacrifice:

One of the PCs at the time was a seer, and there was general view among the players (including the player of the seer) that the divination magic was spoiling the game (Rolemaster was the system being used), and therefore that it might be good to retire that PC and bring in a different one. This metagame consideration had a dramatic effect on play when the party found itself in dire straits, fighting some enemy cultists whom the PCs almost certainly couldn't beat. Realising this, the PC "leader" of the party offered instead to join with the cultists, and as a show of good faith offered up the seer as a sacrifice.

This caught me (as GM) somewhat by surprise, and took the rest of the game in quite a different direction. It also created a ready-to-hand point for future disagreements among the players - the opinions of the player of the "leader" PC could always be dismissed on the grounds that he was the player who was prepared to sacrifice another player's PC! (Given that the phasing out of the PC was a mutual decision, even if the decision to actually sacrifice her was a bit more on the unilateral side, this was generally good-natured jibing rather than a genuine criticism.)

Trying now to work out a hypothetical that is a genuine case of PC self-sacrifice:

The party has made enemies of a god/noble/other powerful NPC, and have been increasingly biting off more than they can chew. The PC paladin/cleric/whomever is particularly hated by this enemy, as is the principal target of the enemies increasingly vicious retaliation. In order to spare the party the retaliation (not to mention the damage to innocent bystanders that might also result from attempts at retaliation by the enemy NPC) the "target PC" offers him/herself to the enemy as a hostage/sacrifice/etc.

That has some resemblance to the "holding off" or "sealing" scenarios, but I think is not the same. For a start it seems to have a central social or bargaining aspect that the others don't.
 

Here's another specific example, which I guess you'd file under either "placate", or else "sacrifices self to uphold one's honour".

Some time ago, in a 3rd Edition campaign, I was playing a half-orc paladin whose special mount was a dire weasel (named Scruffles). We were exploring a marshland area populated by varied nomadic tribes of orcs, goblins and humans, and had strayed into the territory of a hostile orc tribe.

Surrounded by a much larger orc raiding party, my character and about half the rest of the party fought a losing battle, ending with my fellow party members unconscious, and my character pierced with many javelins but still fighting on. To save further casualties amongst his warriors, the orcs' shaman, who has some knowledge of paladins, offers a compromise: If I surrender now, my companions' lives will be spared, and we will receive a fair hearing before the tribal leader. They'll even spare my mount, if I give my solemn oath not to use him to help me escape. Reluctantly, my character agrees.

Cut to the orc encampment that night, when the rest of the party spring a diversion to buy us a chance to escape. We break our bonds, grab weapons, fight our way to our gear, and Scruffles kills his guard and joins the fight too. A few rounds later, we've dealt with the immediate threat, and I help the other two onto my mount. The DM sighs in relief - my mount's easily capable of carrying all thre of us, and still outpacing the orcs, so it looks like we're going to get out of this mess we've got ourselves into.

And then, keeping to my oath, I step back and order Scruffles to carry my companions to safety, while I attempt to make my escape on foot, from the middle of a now very alert orc encampment.

My character didn't make it out alive, but he survived long enough for his mount to bear his companions to safety.
 


The more I think about this, the more I come to the conclusion that while such an ending can work well for a novel or a movie, it's not a good thing for an RPG. So the second part of the point of the thread is: how can heroic sacrifices be presented by the DM such that there is no bitterness from the players or having the heroism fall flat?

In order to reduce potential bitterness, game mechanics can help.

Suppose you have a weapon (or spell) that does 2d6 damage to the target and 1d6 damage to the wielder. These items exist in the game, and are understood by players. Mechanically it makes sense. It does not feel like GM fiat ("if you want to stop the bbeg, you die without save").

Another approach would be to have a series of powerful events and wait for a pc to die, then to declare that the climatic moment. PC Health is a resource, and in severe circumstances it will be used up.

Suppose it is well known that the Balrog will kill any that face it in melee, one of the heroes may decide to delay the Balrog to allow others to flee. But don't make it an automatic death, let the player use his powers and abilities against the Balrog. Perhaps the player will win out.
 

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