Brainstorming on spell fixes

[Eldritch_Lord]

I believe most metamagic feats should do away with spell level increase entirely (or to a large degree for the more powerful ones), but be only usable a certain number of times per day. How does 1/day per metamagic feat you have sound?

Another option would be a number of times per day equal to 5 - existing adjustment. Quicken would be 1/day, Still or Silent would be 4/day, etc. I feel that if you could only use a given feat 1/day, you'd go for the more powerful ones first (which is more useful, Quicken 1/day or Silent 1/day?) but if taking weaker ones let you use them more often it might make them more tempting.

 

[Empirate]

The way I imagine it, you could do the following:

1. You can use your metamagic feats a total number of times per day equal to the total amount of metamagic feats you have. That means you have a pool of metamagic uses.
2. Each metamagic feat has a prerequisite that reads "must be able to cast X level spells".
3. Using metamagic spells doesn't increase the spell's level.
4. If you use more than one metamagic feat on a single spell, it still counts as one use per metamagic feat applied.

What "X" is determines how powerful you want to make it. I see two interesting possibilities: X equals current spell level adjustment +1; or X equals twice the current spell level adjustment, minus 1.

X = spell level adjustment + 1:
A Wizard could take Extend Spell for his 3rd level feat (not earlier). Its prereq reads "must be able to cast 2nd level spells", so he qualifies. He can use one extended spell per day, without increasing its spell level. For his 5th level bonus feat, he could take Empower Spell. Its prereq reads "must be able to cast 3rd level spells", so he qualifies. He can extend OR empower two spells per day, without increasing their spell level. At 6th level, he can take another metamagic feat which currently has a spell level adjustment of no greater than +2, e.g. Split Ray. He can metamagic up three spells per day without increasing their spell level, and choose from Extend, Empower, and Split Ray to do so. Maximize is available once he can cast 4th level spells, Quicken at 5th level spells, and Persistent at 7th level spells.

X = 2 x spell level adjustment - 1:
The Wizard can only take Extend, Still, Silent etc. until he reaches 3rd level spells. However, he can do so from the start (use his 1st level feat on metamagic). From then on, he can use Split Ray, Empower etc. When he gets 5th level spells, he can take Maximize or Widen. Quicken and Twin come online as soon as he can cast 7th level spells. Persistent is impossible here, unless you throw out the formula for the specific case.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't think metamagic cost reducers are necessarily a bad thing.

I don't either, but all the implmentations I've seen (with the one mentioned exception) seemed to me to be too breakable.

You do hit on the problem though, and that is that metamagic is very hard to balance. Most of the metamagic in the game is weak and often too situational to risk. As with reducing metamagic costs, its also not clear to me how to address that problem. Sometimes it seems to me that the fair cost of metamagic is like 1/2 or 1 1/2 spell levels and the problem is attaining that sort of granularity isn't easy. The problem seems somewhat equivalent to the problem of balancing a Magic:The Gathering spell by adjusting its mana cost: sometimes 2 mana is too low, while 3 mana is too high.

I admittedly don't do alot with metamagic. Probably the most powerful thing I do with metamagic is a feat that lets wizards decide what metamagic to apply to a spell at the time you cast it. So, your magic missile in the 5th level slot could be cast quickened or silent, still, and empowered as needed for the tactical situation. But, it also requires investing in metamagic fairly heavily, so its not that attractive. I also have a few feats that apply free metamagic to specific spells - for instance one that empowers any Monster Summoning spell for free when you use it to summon creatures from a lower level list and another that automatically makes a certain list of spells Silent and Still for free (specifically spells relating to 'telepathy' like Detect Thoughts). That is to say, if I can gaurantee the particular effect will be applied to a particular spell, I can easily find situations where the cost of the metamagic could be reduced without breaking the game. But as far as providing that flexibly, I'm not particularly happy with the options I've seen.

The top three metamagics in my game are: Heighten, Quicken, and Energy Subsitution. The rest, admittedly, tend to be ignored. Two of those have to do with particular changes in the way my game works, as in RAW Heighten is fairly useless. So, yeah, the idea is cool and I wish I had better ways to support it, but its proved a troublesome problem to address as side effects tend to be huge. Still is pretty situational best, but free Still is amazing. Empower is marginal, but freely empower at 1 or zero can be encounter wrecking. And if you can get cost decreases to stack, you are golden.

I believe most metamagic feats should do away with spell level increase entirely (or to a large degree for the more powerful ones), but be only usable a certain number of times per day. How does 1/day per metamagic feat you have sound?

That is the way that they work for spell-like abilities, and I must say, I've always found that makes metamagic very strong indeed. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the cost investment involved in that compared to the power you get from free metamagic.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've started a new thread on brainstorming about altering the levels of spells since that's getting lost here, and it is as potentially as intricate a discussion as this one is turning out to be.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-le...instorming-spell-level-fixes.html#post5475528

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't think metamagic cost reducers are necessarily a bad thing. Most metamagic feats are not really worth their spell level increase except in very specific circumstances, or when used with just the right spell.

I never found metamagic useful for a wizard (never got a 3e wizard high enough to use quicken though, which would have been useful).

On the other hand, they were brilliant for a sorcerer. Empower was useful all the time (never start the day without an empowered false life, that's my motto!), Still Spell and Silent Spell were both exceptionally useful in non-combat situations. Silent Suggestion, Still Silent Charm Person, the ability to make magic happen without doing anything as obvious as words or guestures was very useful.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

An alternate way of doing metamagic that I was itching to try but never got the chance (which would horrify many people, but I'm old school enough to enjoy klutz factors as both DM and player!):

Metamagic doesn't take up a higher level slot. Instead it introduces a failure chance to the spell. Each +1 of the metamagic equates to a 10% failure chance.

Thus if you attempt to quicken a spell, you give it a 40% failure chance. If you try to empower a spell, you give it a 20% failure chance. Attempt a maximised quickened empowered spell and it has a 90% failure chance...

Furthermore, if a spell fails because of a metamagic attempt, there is the same chance that it backfires in an interesting or dangerous manner.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

IME, the utility of Metamagic depends on the player/caster, DM, and internal forces of the campaign...much like crafting feats.

I get a lot of use from Still Spell, Silent Spell, Energy Substitution and the Reserve feats, plus some spells REALLY work for certain builds. Reach Spell, for instance, is great for a guy who is already casting a lot of orb/ray touch spells. Especially if he's got any healing spells- its nice to be able to shoot your allies in the back INTENTIONALLY to heal them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

In 3.0 Enlarge spell was a really interesting choice for spells like burning hands or any of the other cone spells. Sadly (for me!) it got double neutered in 3.5e

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Empirate:
Sorry for derailing

Dude, there's no derailing! This is what the thread is all about.

I was just overly ambitious for trying to cram 2 different things into one thread. I had no idea the original would take off like this.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

One option for different metamagic is going back to the 2e version--each metamagic feat is instead a spell or series of spells which are cast before the spell you want to metamagic. To cast an empowered fireball, for instance, you might cast empower I on one round and fireball on the next. That doesn't quite work in 3e where metamagic isn't worth enough to justify waiting a round, but perhaps this could work:

• Every metamagic spell is cast as a swift action.
• Metamagic spells come in series. [Feat Name] I is a spell of the spell's normal adjustment (empower I is 2nd level, maximize I is 3rd, etc.)
• The II and III spells in the series are a number of levels apart equal to the normal adjustment (Empower Spell is +2 adjust, so empower I is a 2nd level spell, empower II is 4th, and empower III is a 6th level spell).
• The I spell affects up to 3rd level spells, the II spell affects up to 6th level, and the III affects up to 9th level. If there isn't room in the progression for a particular II or III spell, it doesn't exist (e.g. twin III would be 12th level, so there is no twin III
• There is no Quicken Spell, because your swift action is being used and going back to the 3.0 "free action once per round" thing isn't happening.

So if you wanted to cast an empowered fireball, for instance, you would learn empower I and fireball, then cast empower I as a swift action and immediately thereafter cast fireball as a standard action, resulting in an empowered fireball. If you wanted to cast a persistent divine power, well, you don't, 'cause persistent I is a 6th level spell that only affects 3rd level and lower spells and there is no persistent II or persistent III.

Benefits:

• You can use metamagic with your highest-level slots if you know the appropriate metamagic spells.
• The level of the spell doesn't change, so you don't have to compare e.g. empowered fireballs and cones of cold to see if the metamagic is worth it.
• Metamagic costs additional slots, so every time you drop a twin or persistent you're giving up an additional 4th or 6th level spell; metamagic your spells carefully.
• The more powerful metamagic simply can't be used with higher-level spells because the metamagic spells don't exist, limiting abuse.
• Since it uses up a swift action, metamagic becomes like metapsionics (i.e. only 1 per spell is feasible).

Thoughts?