Why DMs Don't Like Magic Marts

[MinistryOfGame]

Of course, peasants can just buy regular weapons too - like swords and armour - and overthrow their despotic leaders the old-fashioned way, because there's probably a weaponsmith selling normal boring weapons in every town too. This is why in medieval times, it was illegal for peasants to have swords - so they had their trusty quarterstaff instead.

The game that I've been running the last year or so is in a newly created world (as in, newly created by the gods) and is trying to be the world of myths, where the characters are heroes who will have grand bardic tales written about them in the generations to come. I don't know about you, but "Kage, the honourable sword saint, returned the poor widow's only son from the goblin slavers, and in return she gave him her widow's shawl, because she had nothing, and he had restored her hope by restoring her son" (the shawl allows the character to instill hope in his allies, giving them bonuses to morale and combat) is far more exciting than, "Fighter X killed the medusa with his +2 sword, which he bought from the local Magi-Mart on special."

Having said that, there are people who sell magic in one part of my world (because it is a place run by merchants, so everything is for sale) - but thanks to this thread, I will make sure that all those who trade in magic items will now be evil

 

[Nagol]

For me, the reason I don't like the 3.e version of the world with magic marts is simple: it removes an incentive system to seek out valuable items and/or use the items found to the best of the group's ability.

It effectively converts a measure of treasure into 1/2 the normal cash value of that treasure while the crafting system allows the conversion of 1/2 treasure into an item that is desired by the group.

 

[airwalkrr]

It’s not because Magic Marts polish the authentic patina of medieval rust off of our lovingly crafted campaigns. Think about it; we accept all kinds of other anti-medieval trappings in our campagins: anyone of any relavance seems to know how to read and write -- even druids and simpletons. D&D women are only expected to fill medieval gender roles if they’re unwilling to wear or unattractive in a chainmail bikini. And let’s not forget that just about everyone -- even moronic orcs -- are bilingual. Even pegasi understand the common tongue, for Io’s sake!

So don’t kid yourself that Magic Marts ruin the medieval theme. No, the real reason we DMs don’t like Magic Marts is that they create a point buy subsystem. And all patriotic and red-blooded DMs instinctively know that point buy systems are Evil. Search your heart; you know this to be true.

If you still don’t see the light, I’ll explain. What happens in a Magic Mart campaign? Your players go into a dungeon, steal or loot as much junk as they can stuff into their bags of holding, and then they head back to ye olde towne Magic Mart. They sell all the treasure you gave them in the dungeon, in exchange for points [coins], and then they buy better bonuses and powers [items] with those points [coins].

And like all point buy systems, Magic Marts increase the potential for both under- and over-powered PCs in your game. One player might decide to dump all of his points into offense [a magic weapon] while ignoring defense [AC items]. And because AC is 90% dependent on items, that PC becomes a glass cannon. Which in turn results in very short encounters, frequent resurrections, and probably massive annoyance.

See what I mean? Magic Marts are just a front for point buying, and point buying is the enemy of D&D. It’s everything that mustache-twirling villains stand for, and they’re using Magic Marts to subvert innocent D&Ders into point buyers. So be vigilant, and don’t let the other-skins win!

This message is brought to you by your friendly neighborhood fun police.

This is why ALL D&D campaigns should be based in the village of Hommlet, which is too small to have any magic items of significant value for sale, and surrounded by environments far too dangerous to allow the PCs to travel anywhere else to shop.

 

[prosfilaes]

One issue I had in D&D 3.x is that if you don't have a magic mart, a number of fighter feats become useless. I have Weapon Specialization (Long sword), and I have magical spears and broadswords. Then why'd I waste the feat?

 

[ExploderWizard]

I dislike them as both a DM and a player. Shopping for magical goodies can take far too much precious time away from playing.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

The cure isn't to just remove Magic Marts or item crafting, it's to implement inherent bonuses and to kill the +1 sword, so that all the magic items that are found are all unique and weird.

I'm leaning very strongly towards the notion that the numerical modifiers a character uses (for attacks, AC, etc) should be a factor of the character...

Sadly, I've met just one DM who sympathizes with this idea. "Just give bonuses away? Ha!" And I'm pretty sure the one DM only gives us inherent bonuses because he's running Dark Sun.

This is why ALL D&D campaigns should be based in the village of Hommlet, which is too small to have any magic items of significant value for sale, and surrounded by environments far too dangerous to allow the PCs to travel anywhere else to shop.

So your solution is forceful containment? I like it.

1. I thought it was obvious that 3E's magic item economy was a point buy system. There's no questioning it.

It probably is obvious, but I'm probably a little dense.

 

[Thunderfoot]

No, the REAL reason DMs don't want Magic Mart is that they are non-union shops. You let one WAL-MAGIC in and the mom and pop magic stores go out of business, then the local economy starts to depend upon the WAL-MAGIC for everything, potions, weapons, armor, misc; it's a death spiral for the economic stability of a campaign village. Of course, the non-union employees, mean that crafting guilds are pushed out by unfair price fixing and volume buying, even though most of their items are made by kobolds in sweat shops just above the underdark.

Though the real problem is illegal goblinoid immigrants posing as standard humanoids while working without the permission of the host campaign city or their representative/monarchic/autocratic/etc governments.

(Everyone did notice the LAUGH tag, right?)

 

[Stormonu]

Your neighborhood store is a magic mart. And yeah, point buy is good. I want to know how much coin I have in my pocket. Not to say you can't haggle. Haggle all you want, but remember that this is the dungeon. You aren't getting out of here alive with that stuff for free. There's always a price. That guy in the corner selling you stuff? He has treasure sufficient for his level. He's no pushover, he's a monster.

Well that would fit if you could go to Walmart and order a M-60 or an M1Abrams tank, not some hunting rifle or an orange hunting vest.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Not something that can really be applied to 4e (and 3e would be tough), but part of the way I'd turn away from the "magic mart" idea is this:

All of a character's powers come from treasure.

Wizard wants to learn a new spell? Gotta go raid a dungeon.

Fighter wants to get a new trick? Gotta go raid a dungeon.

Cleric wants to get a new miracle? Gotta go raid a dungeon.

You don't get to choose what powers you get. You get what you get. You don't gain any unique abilities from leveling up.

Every power you get, of course, is wondrous and weird and a little complicated.

This is highly gamist -- folks who are a fan of storytelling in their D&D probably wouldn't be a fan of it. Similarly, folks who are into gearhead build-making won't enjoy it much.

BUT, I think it would be a heck of a lot of fun to play. And it would mean that you can't "trade in" an item for a different one, or one more suited to you. The items you find you get to use. You don't get anything else to use.

 

[Haltherrion]

Magic Marts also interfere with the DM putting specific items in hoards that are useful to the campaign later on. Suppose I have an encounter planned in the adventuring site that's a lot easier to deal with because of a specific item and I've placed it in a trove the PCs are likely to encounter before they'll need it. Unless it's one of those items that's constantly useful (the Big 6), if the PCs have the power to cash it in for whatever they want, it'll be gone before it reaches its ultimate utility.

Without easy magic marts, I used to see more players hanging onto quirky items with a "we'll see" attitude toward the item's usefulness.

Good points (sorry tapped on XP'ing you )

Being anti-medieval has little bearing for me; I don't run medieval settings but I don't like them for a number of reasons inluding the ones you cite. I'd also add:

• They make it harder for me to make magic special. Why do I like magic special? Because it's one of those nice "oh wow" things you can do in a FRPG. You know, 'magic moments' Someone's eyes lighting up when they get something cool. It's a lot easier to deliver that wow moment if they are stepping up to a +3 flaming sword from a +1 sword than it is if they have been steadily visiting the mart every few levels to upgrade their sword.
• In many games (mine included but I see it alot), the playes have more magic than most other folks of any comparable level. To provide a mart that is useful to the players seems to also create an amount of magic that tends to throw even more magic items out in the world which can be distorting or distasteful to me. Large amounts of magic should have an affect on a world similar to large amounts of technology. If the players locally have a large amount, I can overlook that. If the magic-mart is adding a multiple of the players magic into the world (and you need a healthy multiple of what the players have to have a real market), that gets to be more than I'm comfortable overlooking.

So, for me, magic marts have game-running problems and they also send the world down a path I don't really care for anyway. But as a player and not a ref, if you put one in front of me, sure, I'll use it. Happy shopping