Wizards: Squishy or All Powerful?

Squish or All Powerful?

  • The d4 insures Wizards will always fear cats

    Votes: 12 15.8%
  • Spellcasting provides some level of survivability

    Votes: 25 32.9%
  • Spellcasting provides a lot of survivability

    Votes: 24 31.6%
  • Spellcasting insures survivability

    Votes: 15 19.7%

JoeGKushner

Adventurer
On the old threads talking about game design, wizards, literature, nerfing wizards, etc..., I've posted a few times that while I know that wizards and other spellcasters tend to have a lot of potential options, in actual game play that doesn't tend to make them all powerful.

But that's just my experience.

Golems, devils, demons, and all sorts of other beasties have too many resistances and SR. In older editions, MR was worse.

But again, this is just my experience.

In your experience, are wizards the masters of the universe or just squishy dudes that until they hit 15th level must hide for life itself?
 

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In my experience the answer is: It depends on your DM.

In the AD&D campaign I played in back in my youth, my magic-user gained a wand of fire (about 90 charges), a staff of power and bracers of armour class 2. Was he a lot more effective and dangerous than most members of the party? Absolutely.

Meanwhile, I've played a 1st-level magic-user with nothing except a lone shocking grasp spell. Talk about an underpowered character!

Edition makes a huge difference to the capabilities of the magic-user. In 3E, the magic-user can craft wands of fire pretty much at will, has more spells, and has access to multiple scrolls that contain any utility spell he needs during the course of the adventure. (To a large extent, high-level 3e is the high point of the magic-user's effectiveness).

AD&D play is also distorted by the use of henchmen. I don't believe that high-level magic-users are that great on their own, but they're so much more interesting to play than your general fighter. When you have a player going into a dungeon playing a magic-user and three fighter henchmen (which is often how RJK or EGG would play), you unsquishify your fighter and make other PCs less needed.

Cheers!
 



I've never seen wizard happy to live with an unmodified d4 HD. In 3.x, we generally expected wizards to derive at least as HP from CON (especially at higher levels) and other HP gains than from raw HD.
 

Wizards die easy. Even at high levels, they have weak saves and no armor. They're fun to play, but I never understood all the outcry about the "god wizard", which AFAIK exists only on message boards and in a few select games. The spells (including defensive ones) are just enough to make them fun to play.
 

Wizards die easy. Even at high levels, they have weak saves and no armor. They're fun to play, but I never understood all the outcry about the "god wizard", which AFAIK exists only on message boards and in a few select games. The spells (including defensive ones) are just enough to make them fun to play.

I've found it depends entirely upon system mastery, and how much planning the player is willing to do. A player who knows the system and has no problem setting up a spell schedule for himself is nigh unstoppable at high levels (in 3e), low saves, low hit points, low AC be damned.
 

In my campaigns wizards have the second highest mortality rate - trailing the fighter, but not by much. (On more than one occasion they have died either in the same round or consecutive rounds.) Deadly, but fragile, earning their nickname 'glass cannon'. :)

Clerics are the last to drop, with rogues next in the 'not me gods, him!' portion of the not dying list.

The Auld Grump, mind, fighters and wizards are also the top two damage dealers in my games.
 

On the old threads talking about game design, wizards, literature, nerfing wizards, etc..., I've posted a few times that while I know that wizards and other spellcasters tend to have a lot of potential options, in actual game play that doesn't tend to make them all powerful.

But that's just my experience.

Golems, devils, demons, and all sorts of other beasties have too many resistances and SR. In older editions, MR was worse.

But again, this is just my experience.

In your experience, are wizards the masters of the universe or just squishy dudes that until they hit 15th level must hide for life itself?

It's a little of both. It depends on the edition and the GM. But IMO in 3.x, which I have a lot of experience with, wizards got overpowered at the higher levels when they didn't seem to run out of spells per day. And I'm talking three or four encounter days here, not 15 minutes.

In 2e and 3e, the power curve was steep. A 1st-level wizard had very few spells per day. Whether they rocked or not depended heavily on spell selection.

For instance, a 1st-level wizard in 2e with sleep was amazingly powerful until they'd lost that spell. Low-level enemies had very weak saving throws. Unfortunately, afterward you were reduced to throwing darts. IIRC you could throw three a round, and that wasn't too bad, as long as you had a good Dexterity score, and you couldn't rely on that.

At higher levels your direct damage was powerful, as enemy hit points were weak. Unfortunately, so were yours. Fireball was king. Enemy saves were creeping high enough that they often didn't fail.

At even higher levels opponents had very good saving throws. That's when you started dishing out Power Word X spells, which had no saving throws and had very fast casting times too.

A note on casting spells: if you took even one point of damage, your spell fizzled, and the initiative plus casting time system made it fairly easy for enemies to do something about this.

My 2e experiences are rather hazy. I recall kicking butt due to use of Stoneskin, but didn't that have an expensive material component? I suppose Improved Invisibility was really good though. Short of clever tactics, there wasn't much a non-spellcasting enemy could do to you.

In 3.x the curve was a little less steep. At pretty much all levels, save-or-suffer was better than direct damage due to hit point inflation.

Unlike in previous editions, you could control your save DC. Your highest stat was your spellcasting stat, which meant you could drop your highest save DC on whatever save you wanted to target (as long as you had higher level spells). If you were targeting an opponent's strong save (eg a fighter's Fortitude save) your chances of success could easily be more than 50%, since your opponent isn't boosting their Con every level. Indeed, only Dex and Wis-based classes got a lot of power out of the new saving throw system (enchanting a cleric was basically impossible). Of course, you would try to target your opponent's weak save. Target a "big dumb fighter" or "big dumb monster"'s Reflex or Will save; target a "controller"'s Fortitude save, and you were usually ahead of the game. (Usually, turns out that ogre was a spellcaster and had a high Will save!)

At higher levels, this got marginally better.

Defense spells had a few really powerful numbers in there. Spells that boosted a stat (like Mage Armor) usually weren't worth casting.

Once you reached 3rd-level, you might prefer Mirror Image (works against any enemy without special senses, and it doesn't matter if their attack bonus is twenty points higher than your AC). Also really handy against targeted spells (Magic Missile, Finger of Death, what have you).

At 5th-level you got Fly, which blunted or even eliminated many opponents' attacks. Displacement was also a cool choice, but Mirror Image was probably better. Half the time your opponent's attack bonus didn't matter.

At 7th-level you could get Greater Invisibility, which was probably broken as written; the rules for targeting an invisible opponent were so slow, arcane (no pun intended) and biased in the mage's favor it basically made you invincible. Your opponent could turn the tables with See Invisibility or True Seeing, in which case you only had one opponent to deal with for a bit, and I would suggest killing that guy and fast! (Did Nondetection work to keep you from being seen here? I thought so, but never actually got to use this tactic.)

So in short, use defenses that completely overrode opponent's attacks. Most monsters couldn't handle this, and even when facing evil classed NPCs few opponents could deal with this.

Mage's defenses were pretty fragile against magic, however. One area dispel and your flying invisible mage might be falling (or floating down), visible and sporting a very low AC. Against non-spellcasters, you were sitting pretty. Unless you got surprised, of course, but that's something you could use against opponents too, so it's a wash (IMO). While wizards could slather on a suite of defenses when they had time, your best bet was to use illusory defenses (Greater Invisibility or Mirror Image) for your one-round "screw-non-spellcaster" defenses.

Possibly worse was Spell Turning. You never really knew which enemy had it on, and even if you knew the enemy wizard had cast it, you didn't necessarily know on who. (But evil wizards tend to be selfish, so assume they cast it on themself. Which was a problem when they also used True Seeing, since you couldn't instantly eliminate them. But note that a fighter can't really do anything about this.)

Spell Resistance could ruin a mage's day. Sometimes. Using just PH1 spells in 3.5, you could bypass SR in numerous ways. Conjuration was the key here. If you dished out spells like Glitterdust (cast it at 3rd-level when SR-sporting enemies were very rare, keep casting Heightened versions at higher levels) or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere you always had something to do when facing demons, golems, etc. These were great spells too, so there's little reason not to pick them. On the other hand, loading up exclusively on such spells was problematic to say the last. If you're only prepping Glitterdust, expect to run into lots of enemies with blindsight.

Utility spells were the sort of thing that could drive other players nuts. While some (Fly) didn't bother me too much (you can fly, but not your friends, and being far from them meant you were vulnerable to invisible stalkers, etc), others, like Teleport, could break campaigns. While DMs had to take that into account as PCs gained levels, I think many wished it were of higher level to start with. And some spells (Polymorph, Shapechange) needed a complete rewrite. In fact, broken spells were usually worse than broken feats, if only because spells were more powerful than virtually anything else in the game.

I might be conflating the wizard with the druid here, but IIRC a wizard could summon a unicorn, who could provide some limited healing (not great in a fight, but really good afterward) and give you free Protection from Evil to boot!

Concentration was an amazing skill. You could use it to guarantee you wouldn't draw an AoO when casting a spell, and after a while casting on the defensive became automatic. You could "take 0" and still never fail. Other distractions were generally pretty weak and easily ignored. However, the skill was still rolled whenever someone readied an action to hit you or drop a fireball on you when you cast a spell, or you were taking ongoing damage, or were grappled.

IMO, the wizard's advantages in 3.x were considerable:

1) Very powerful save-or-suffer spells. The saving throw/save DC system was biased in your favor. Some feats, like Spell Focus, were amazing. (Spell Focus [Transmutation], for instance, gave you a bonus to save DCs on spells that could target two saves, making it more valuable than Spell Focus [Enchantment].)

2) Powerful defenses that you could take away many opponents' advantages. Facing a giant, or a fighter? They have a hard time targeting you without True Seeing.

2a) And some very weak defenses. Protection from Spells was lamesauce. By the time you could cast it, your Cloak of Protection was giving you half that bonus anyway.

And weaknesses...

1) Very low hit points and weak saves.

2) You ran out of spells. Ceased being a big issue in the mid-levels. (By this point, your cleric's spell capacity was more important, IME.)

3) Unreliability. While you could steamroll most opponents, some could steamroll you. Or just roll lucky on their saves. Or you didn't pick the right spells.

Contrast to the fighter, who was reliable... but often reliably weak. The fighter especially had few options. Usually you were just deciding on how much to Power Attack. The feats were weak and didn't scale. Your best feat, Greater Weapon Specialization, gave you +4 to hit. Wooh! (At least barbarians had cool extras, like a significant bonus to their Will save.)

You had no good saves, just a decent Fortitude save, leaving you extremely vulnerable to a wizard's offense (other than direct damage, of course, which bounced off your inflated hit points). Your AC was worthless; very few wizard spells targeted AC (Mordenkainen's Sword and, indirectly, summon spells are the only ones that come to mind). Indeed, physical monsters couldn't miss you either. Hope your cleric is quick with the healing spells.

If an enemy mage used just two spells (Fly and Greater Invisibility), you couldn't reliably target them, you took a 50% miss chance even if you could guess, and you were using a weapon you didn't spend a whole lot of feats on anyway. You could of course spend money on Goggles of True Seeing, but those were expensive and took away from the Christmas tree of items you needed to boost your AC.

In 4e, the classes are actually pretty balanced with each other. At least in my low-level experience, wizards are probably a little weak. They shine in some areas (control, AoE damage) and are weak in others (single-target damage). But they usually have low ACs with little to make up for that. Wizards also don't get the overly awesome defensive spells they got in 3.x, and these spells usually only give you a one-time bonus (for instance, Shield gives you +4 AC, either against a single attack or until the end of your next turn). Spells that let you bypass a fighter's attack roll (eg Displacement) have been rewritten so they merely give you a bonus. Your best bet is to stick next to the fighter and let him use his defender abilities to protect him, rather than staying far away. Let him take the hits; not only is he tougher, but his abilities are actually geared to protecting other PCs, rather than only acting as a roadblock for less mobile enemies like he was in 3.x.
 
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I've found it depends entirely upon system mastery, and how much planning the player is willing to do. A player who knows the system and has no problem setting up a spell schedule for himself is nigh unstoppable at high levels (in 3e), low saves, low hit points, low AC be damned.
I don't disagree with the idea that system mastery is important for the wizard, but I do have two other points.

The first is that I don't know or play with any people who are willing to put in the effort it takes to master the system to a degree where casters become unbalanced. Even when playing high-level casters, it's my experience that most players will pick a character theme and select spells around it rather than trying to find aberrantly powerful uses for them.

The second is that DMing plays into it tremendously. Wizards have to prepare spells, which means that the DM (and possibly an intelligent NPC) know exactly what's coming. There are plenty of counters, starting with SR and saves but ending somewhere beyond my knowledge, and every logical in-game reason to use them. The rules are complicated enough that many judgment calls are required in adjudicating how spells work, and it's important for a DM not to let overpowered stuff get through. For a wizard to take over, the DM has to let him do it.

I think the lack of good high-level fighter/rogue benefits is a much bigger issue than the invincible wizard.
 

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