Heroes of Shadow Table of Contents

[DracoSuave]

I don't really care about essentials vs. non-essentials. I have to admit though that I am very sad that we don't get the necromancer written up as a full fledged class. As a subclass of the wizard, it's going to be a controller, and a necromancer would work better as a leader.

Except, outside of Vampiric Touch, arcane necromancy spells didn't actually do any healing for anyone else except the caster. You had some metamagic stuff like Spectral Hand, but most necromancy was about debuffing, damage, or save-or-die spells. The 'create minion' stuff was actually subpar to the evil cleric, and is generally a controller thing anyways.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Except, outside of Vampiric Touch, arcane necromancy spells didn't actually do any healing for anyone else except the caster. You had some metamagic stuff like Spectral Hand, but most necromancy was about debuffing, damage, or save-or-die spells. The 'create minion' stuff was actually subpar to the evil cleric, and is generally a controller thing anyways.

Why so tethered by what was?

A while ago, I posted what a theoretical "necromancer leader" would look like -- all stealing health and inflicting penalties on enemies (while granting that health and symmetrical bonuses to allies)...

Y'know, not that it matters, I bet an old-school necromancer works well as a mage school. Debuffs are a very Controller-y thing.

But there's a lot of potential workspace for a "necromancer." The team didn't HAVE to go back to old necromancy spells and just make it a mage build. That's a valid and interesting choice, but it's certainly not the only valid and interesting choice (and some folks might've thought Leadermancers would have been more interesting maybe).

Anyway, more broadly, I'm looking forward to everything (possibly not the new races, but the Shade wasn't the strongest foot to lead with). And I still don't quite understand the complaints of those who aren't Essentials fans with regards to future products, especially this product, which looks to be much broader than an Essentials splat.

Curious about the Binder, and how it'll vary from/combo with the Vestige Pact warlock....

 

[Kobold Avenger]

It seems like a wasted opportunity in some places, now I'm okay with them supporting the Essentials sub-classes, but they should directly support any of the non-Essentials classes where appropriate.

Like for example the option to have a shadowy/undead spirit for a Shaman's Spirit Companion.

 

[DracoSuave]

Why so tethered by what was?

A while ago, I posted what a theoretical "necromancer leader" would look like -- all stealing health and inflicting penalties on enemies (while granting that health and symmetrical bonuses to allies)..

Well, for an extension of the mage... they kinda do.

I don't disagree tho that some form of death-magic wielding leader doesn't have a place in the game tho, not one bit. A cleric build that specializes in sapping life would work extremely well given what they already have, and actually fits the legacy support a lot better as well.

Also, that seems like what they're doing.

You might be getting what you want, just not in the form you think.

It seems like a wasted opportunity in some places, now I'm okay with them supporting the Essentials sub-classes, but they should directly support any of the non-Essentials classes where appropriate.

Like for example the option to have a shadowy/undead spirit for a Shaman's Spirit Companion.

Primal magic doesn't grant power over other planes, it's strictly the magic inherent to the world itself (read: prime material plane). Divine and Arcane explicitly do.

 

[Jhaelen]

So you're passing judgment without even seeing what the rest of the book looks like?

No. I'm passing judgement based on the information I have NOW.
If new information is revealed, I may well change my opinion. E.g. a change of opinion happened for me after the recent preview of the Nentir Vale MV. Before the preview I wasn't interested, now that I know it will include 4e versions of several old favorite monsters, I'm probably getting it.

I don't really care about essentials vs. non-essentials. I have to admit though that I am very sad that we don't get the necromancer written up as a full fledged class. As a subclass of the wizard, it's going to be a controller, and a necromancer would work better as a leader.

Really? I thought Essentials builds could be of any role, e.g. the Slayer is a striker, though it's a fighter build and should therefore be a defender.

They'll be riders, surely. But that doesn't mean you *can't* take them. I've often played characters who took powers from the "wrong" sub-class.

And as previously mentioned, Martial Power was worse in this regard. A non-beastmaster ranger really *can't* make any use of beast powers.

Well, powers with riders that can only be used if you have a certain class feature are typically less attractive than powers without riders or powers with riders that you _can_ use. It's part of the powers' balancing.
Sure, you can pick them, but it's often a suboptimal choice.

I agree, that it's not a new problem, though.

In the end, how useful it's going to be for someone who prefers to ignore Essentials will depend on how much of the content represents _worthwhile_ options for 'Classic' characters.

 

[Dice4Hire]

In the end, how useful it's going to be for someone who prefers to ignore Essentials will depend on how much of the content represents _worthwhile_ options for 'Classic' characters.

Excellent way to say what I am thinking.

 

[Walking Dad]

...
Binder warlock is a classic-PHB-ranged-warlock and has nothing to do with hexblades.

Necro/nethermancy wizard schools have nothing to do with the Mage; in fact, the Mage interpretation of them is listed completely separately.

I compared it to the player option books because it provides content based on a centralized theme. If you want to nitpick the fact that it has stuff that no other option book has, whatever. This isn't a courtroom though so the principle of precedent doesn't really fly.
...

Where did you get the information about the Binder? And he will have as much as common with the Hexblade as the Slayer has with the Knight, I think. That does not make it more similar to the PH1 book warlock.

There are no 'wizard schools' mentioned. They are listed under 'School of Magic'. I predict that page 98 contains the fluff and necromancy keyword stuff, usable for all wizard classes (old and new) and starting on page 100 apprentice bonuses and the like for Mages (no stuff for old wizards).
This would be the same as they did in 'Heroes of the Fallen Lands', general school description on page 193-194 and specific Mage school bonuses on 238+.

And yes I nit-pick your attempt to make it another category of book because of the hardness of it's cover, even as it is named 'Heroes of Shadow', like another book is named 'Heroes of the Fallen Lands'.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

You want something that requires implement mastery? You do realize that there are already 6 implement masteries to, what, 3 schools?

Oh, and all the old classes are getting updates, one a month (two in June, by their stated intent), for the next 5 months. If that doesn't make you happy, I don't know what will.

For the record, I like Essentials. I don't like to pretend that the new books are not more focused on them as on the PH1-3 stuff.

Implement Mastery and non-domain cleric at-wills were just examples that show that they do only:

A) Essentials stuff compatible with PH1-PH2 classes (Example: Wizard/Mage At-will attack powers)

B) Essentials stuff non-compatible with PH1-PH2 classes (Example: more Mage Schools)

but not:

C) Stuff for PH1-PH2 classes that is non-compatible with Essentials (Examples: New wizard implement masteries, non domain cleric at-will attacks)

Please prove me wrong before attacking me again for my 'Essentials hate' (I'm playing right now more essential classes than PH1-3 ones).

 

[Walking Dad]

Well, going by the table of contents....

Yeah, let's do this!

The new Cleric Options are seperated from the Warpriest Domains, which indicates that you're getting both new domain stuff AND new base cleric stuff... which is double good because most domain stuff IS base cleric stuff (tho not vice versa.)

Could be... or the new Cleric powers are all utility and daily attack ones. In this case they are just powers PH1 clerics and Warpriests can take. No exclusive PH1 cleric stuff in this case.

Some new Warlock powers, seperate from a new hexblade pact.

See my cleric power comment.

Wizard powers, which can obviously be picked up by a mage, but whatever, anything for one that isn't directly related to school specialization or implement mastery are options for both.

Yes, for both. With school riders only for Mages.

 

[Nullzone]

Where did you get the information about the Binder? And he will have as much as common with the Hexblade as the Slayer has with the Knight, I think. That does not make it more similar to the PH1 book warlock.

There are no 'wizard schools' mentioned. They are listed under 'School of Magic'. I predict that page 98 contains the fluff and necromancy keyword stuff, usable for all wizard classes (old and new) and starting on page 100 apprentice bonuses and the like for Mages (no stuff for old wizards).
This would be the same as they did in 'Heroes of the Fallen Lands', general school description on page 193-194 and specific Mage school bonuses on 238+.

And yes I nit-pick your attempt to make it another category of book because of the hardness of it's cover, even as it is named 'Heroes of Shadow', like another book is named 'Heroes of the Fallen Lands'.

I know about the Binder from DDXP. It's a PHB Warlock, spends all its time casting spells at range.

As for Wizard options, read harder:

Wizard Options. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98
School of Magic. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98
Necromancy School. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98
Nethermancy School. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98
New Powers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 99
Mage Schools. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 110

Eleven pages of nothing but Wizard powers, before it even gets to the Mage schools!

I'm not going to argue with you any more on the book type, but you're being dumb if you treat this as an Essentials component just because of the name.

Edit: Just saw this.

Could be... or the new Cleric powers are all utility and daily attack ones. In this case they are just powers PH1 clerics and Warpriests can take. No exclusive PH1 cleric stuff in this case.

...what? So because they aren't adding stuff exclusive to a PHB class, suddenly that class isn't supported?

You do know that your powers are interchangeable right?

Did we all suddenly forget how our own game's rules work here? What is going on?