Wizards: Squishy or All Powerful?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Well, if we want to equate escape or not being targeted to power, then the rogue who hides in a corner is ultra powerful as see invisibility does not help at all.

Nyet.

1) A character with Spot as a trained skill has a decent change of spotting a hiding rogue (who isn't invisible -- magic!).

2) What exactly is the rogue doing in the corner? And once he or she fires, people will see him or her anyway. A wizard can dish out the hurt while remaining unseen.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Wizards who tend to die also have a tendency to memorize "fun" spells like Fireball. Classic mistake. Bad for the monsters, but worse for the wizard.

Do you mean 'a tendency to memorize spells that are non-selfish'?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Do you mean 'a tendency to memorize spells that are non-selfish'?

I think you should have used another quote for that.

I don't see Fireball as being selfish or unselfish. It's just weak.

Wizards who have a "tendency to memorize suboptimal spells" tend to get themselves and their party killed.

 

[Dice4Hire]

The topic I was responding to was that Wizards have tons of options to defend themselves. I don't see how they do that (especially at low levels) and help the party out in any way.

 

[Mort]

The topic I was responding to was that Wizards have tons of options to defend themselves. I don't see how they do that (especially at low levels) and help the party out in any way.

Scrolls and wands for one (easier than any prior eddition).

But also, spells like slow which limit enemy options significantly while making things much easier for the wizard and his allies. It gets bigger with higher levels - Evard's Black Tentacles can lock down a battlefield, making a battle mop-up, high level spells like Maze can take out the nastiest thing on the field (no save) to be ganged up on later.

The point is - many, many options (that both keep the wizard safe and help friends), which only increase with level.

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[JoeGKushner]

5th-level is a bit early for an invincible mage, but I'd go for Mirror Image for 5 rounds of powerful protection that takes only one standard action to cast -- you don't need a buffing suite. It's great but not broken. It's great because it bypasses your opponent's higher attack rolls and even deals with targeted spells, unless they have specific senses and magic. It's balanced because an opponent can keep making attacks or slinging spells until they tag a hit.

It's not great against enemy wizards though, since if they hit you with Lightning Bolt they don't need to target you.

At 7th-level (or, more likely, 8th) you get Greater Invisibility or Polymorph Self. Now you've gone from powerful to broken.

I guess my question then becomes, if pure survivability the only potential thing we're looking at? At 7th level some of the beasties you're fighting are using area effect attacks and 7th level hit points ain't exactly a massive guarantee of survival. In addition, to cast either one of those TWO 4th level spells, you don't have room for much else in your arsenal. Is this this pussyfoot mage rumored to exist in legend but rare in actual game play?

I ask because again, in my experience, Fire Shield, Stone Skin, Fire Wall, Evard's black Tentacles etc... are far more likely to be tkane for use in actual play when you're moving into the old dungeon.

But play varies so I ask again if those two spells are the ones most likely to be actively memorized by a 7th level wizard in ye old typical dungeon.

 

[Mort]

I guess my question then becomes, if pure survivability the only potential thing we're looking at? At 7th level some of the beasties you're fighting are using area effect attacks and 7th level hit points ain't exactly a massive guarantee of survival. In addition, to cast either one of those TWO 4th level spells, you don't have room for much else in your arsenal. Is this this pussyfoot mage rumored to exist in legend but rare in actual game play?

I ask because again, in my experience, Fire Shield, Stone Skin, Fire Wall, Evard's black Tentacles etc... are far more likely to be tkane for use in actual play when you're moving into the old dungeon.

But play varies so I ask again if those two spells are the ones most likely to be actively memorized by a 7th level wizard in ye old typical dungeon.

Spells well before 4th help with survival, again such as: false life, mirror image, blink grease, slow, etc. leaving your 2 big spells for necessary control and other party helping measures (summoning spells start becoming big around this level btw.)

The mage's battlefield control also helps with survival, for ex. fire wall and evard's control the battlefield (not to mention if you cast evard's and the enemy can still get off spells (area control or otherwise) you were probably already in big trouble).

When the mage increases in level his use of the lower level spells skyrockets (again from scrolls, wands etc.): at the mid levels this is a bit of a big deal and has no downside (at 7th level a false life and mirror image combo will give the mage more staying power than a rogue while still leaving plenty of room for battlefield control and other offense - the gap only increases from there).

The last time I played a wizard - it just seemed my character was the clear biggest facter at locking down combats and turning supposed difficult encounters into mop-up sessions (we played from 5th-12th level and it was consistant though really amped up around 9-10th, and I wasn't even playing a pure wizard I was playing a fighter/mage though by 9th I was going much more mage than fighter). And in addition to that I was ridiculously useful out of combat too, what with divination spells, knock spells, movement spells(leading to teleportation) etc.

Though to further answer your question - no pure survivability is not the best measure, effectiveness is. And for effectiveness both in and out of combat you're going to find it hard to compete with a mid to high level 3e/3.5e mage.

btw - I suppose I didn't really define effectiveness but to me it's one of those know it when I see it measures.

 

[Mort]

Dice4hire - the stuff I outlined is usable and effective at low level too.

But taking your sarcastic comment at face value - 12th+ level is a big part of the game - or at least it should be.

It's not necessarily magic that's the problem - it's easy access to ridiculous amounts and all facets of it.

So for example, high level sorcerers, beguilers, warmages etc. (spontanious casters for the most part) don't cause near the issues that a wizard can, while still being fun to play and providing decent magical oomph. At least IME of course.

 

[JoeGKushner]

And my question becomes... you can't have invisibility and polymorph self AND firewall and evard's unless your GM is really doling out essentially unlimited downtime and unlimited access to spells and more importantly, scrolls.

If that's the case, I'm trying to figure where other classes in these campaigns wouldn't have their own little bits that allow similiar surviability since in 3e, most spells of... 3rd level or lower can also be... potions.

and it's a serious question because I've seen many a mage fall into say, a spiked pit that the thief missed but didn't trigger and the mage, despite being invisible, still lost say, a stoneskin to, in the days when it lasted a good long while.

But this may get back to the whole dungeon crawling environment as opposed to the "if mages know what'sw coming they can prpeare for everything with unlimited scrolls and potions crowd" vibe I'm somewhat seeing here.

 

[Mort]

And my question becomes... you can't have invisibility and polymorph self AND firewall and evard's unless your GM is really doling out essentially unlimited downtime and unlimited access to spells and more importantly, scrolls.

If that's the case, I'm trying to figure where other classes in these campaigns wouldn't have their own little bits that allow similiar surviability since in 3e, most spells of... 3rd level or lower can also be... potions.

and it's a serious question because I've seen many a mage fall into say, a spiked pit that the thief missed but didn't trigger and the mage, despite being invisible, still lost say, a stoneskin to, in the days when it lasted a good long while.

*sigh* it doesn't have to be unlimited - any reasonable downtime is enough for a few scrolls etc.

But to answer the question - Can't do some of the best spells as potions without a houserule: no personal range spells. That means no: expeditious retreat, false life, mirror image etc.

But this may get back to the whole dungeon crawling environment as opposed to the "if mages know what'sw coming they can prpeare for everything with unlimited scrolls and potions crowd" vibe I'm somewhat seeing here.

First, divination is stock and trade for a mage, at least past level 9 or so. A well prepared mage will have some idea of what's coming. That aside, It's not like you need a a billion scrolls to prepare for a billion situations. A knock or 2 a water breathing, a comp. lang. or tongues, maybe a spider climb - you can get those out in about a week. The higher level you get the easier it becomes to prepare.

But let's not get carried away - I'm not talking about invincible, can't kill me muhaaa here - a good DM can always provide a good adventure and/or challenge. I'm just saying a well prepared mage by using tools provided in 3e/3.5 (and no prior edditions) is overly versatile/effective relative to other classes.

Edit: Also it's the 6 second solution to most problems that really irks me -it's too quick and easy. That's why I like rituals. There is no downside to the 3e wizard casting knock vs. the rogue picking the lock (yes knock is expendable but if the lock is worth it so what? At least pathfinder made it a check just like the rogue as opposed to automatic). But as a ritual: big downside, the rogue can do it in seconds, the mage takes ten minutes and is fatigued - that's a real tradeoff.