Wizards: Squishy or All Powerful?

[ProfessorCirno]

It's worth mentioning that wizards are best at being offensively defensive. The best offense is etc etc etc. What's that mean?

Grease, not magic missile. Web or glitterdust, not acid arrow. Stinking cloud, not fireball.

Wizards are best when they look at the entire group of enemies and completely shut down half of them, if not more.

Hell, Wind Wall is a level three spell that ends archery. Once the wizard has scrollmaking capabilities for level three spells, archery may as well no longer exist.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I guess my question then becomes, if pure survivability the only potential thing we're looking at?

Were you looking for offense as well? Because there's already been discussions of the various save-or-suffer spells.

At 7th level some of the beasties you're fighting are using area effect attacks

I'm literally struggling to picture any of these. Are any of them using spell-like abilities? Will that be a serious issue if I'm invisible and they don't know which square I'm in?

and 7th level hit points ain't exactly a massive guarantee of survival.

That's why you try to avoid being targeted.

In addition, to cast either one of those TWO 4th level spells, you don't have room for much else in your arsenal. Is this this pussyfoot mage rumored to exist in legend but rare in actual game play?

Actual gameplay. It's a lot better than getting ganked.

And you'll note I did say "more likely 8th" to give you some 4th-level offense too. And of course you still have Mirror Image for the next encounter.

I ask because again, in my experience, Fire Shield, Stone Skin, Fire Wall, Evard's black Tentacles etc... are far more likely to be tkane for use in actual play when you're moving into the old dungeon.

Really? Fire Shield IME sucks. We faced an NPC mage using it. Our fighter or barbarian (I forget which) just absorbed the damage and killed him. The DM was new to DMing that level, and said he'd never use that spell again.

Stoneskin has an expensive material component. I believe it still did in 3.5 as well, but they might have changed it. It won't protect you from magic, either.

I haven't seen Fire Wall in play, so I'm not too experienced in its use. I'd need to read it up.

Evard's Black Tentacles is an attack spell, and I was discussing defense. And yes, Evard's is pretty sweet.

But play varies so I ask again if those two spells are the ones most likely to be actively memorized by a 7th level wizard in ye old typical dungeon.

Those spells would be picked if they were me. At least Greater Invisibility anyway, since it's easier to use.

 

[Stoat]

Wow. I was looking at the SRD, and I'd forgotten how cheap scrolls are.

I guess it doesn't much matter how many spell slots you have when you can offload your magic onto paper.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'll post more when I'm in a computer rather than a phone, but there are a couple of observations.

1. Allowing spells outside Phb accentuates brokenness'. Far too many poorly designed uberspells.
2. I'm seeing a lot of responses here that seem to assume the wizard is only in 1-3 encounters per day. And never gets caught by surprise. And never has to wrestle with the opportunity cost of casting spell x vs y in combat.
3. (ok I thought of another one) cheap construction of scrolls and wands in 3e was a Bad Idea. In earlier editions the cost of having utility spells was less defence or offence, and that kinda disappeared.

FWIW I think the wizard in 3e was always lower on the power curve than Druid, Cleric and Psion.

Cheers

 

[Stoat]

3. (ok I thought of another one) cheap construction of scrolls and wands in 3e was a Bad Idea. In earlier editions the cost of having utility spells was less defence or offence, and that kinda disappeared.

FWIW I think the wizard in 3e was always lower on the power curve than Druid, Cleric and Psion.

Yeah, If I'm looking at the right table in 3.5 DMG, a 5th level wizard will have +/- 9,000 gold. He can scribe up a 3rd level spell scroll for 188 gp. That's almost at-will.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Yeah, If I'm looking at the right table in 3.5 DMG, a 5th level wizard will have +/- 9,000 gold. He can scribe up a 3rd level spell scroll for 188 gp. That's almost at-will.

But... and maybe it's just me here, you don't get your spells for free in the first place. Well, not all of them.

There's a base cost for spells.

there's a base cost for the spellbook itself and to put spells into the book.

Mateials and cost for a spell is 100gp per page per spell level. A 3rd level spell is going to be 300 gp to write it into the book. Ths doesn't count learning cost outside of your new spell slot so that's another 50gp per level if the GM is being kind as the core PHB notes "many wizards jealously guard their high level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether."

That 9K goes mighty quick.

And if your poor bastard wizard misses a saving throw and gets his spellbook nuked?

Ah man!

 

[Stoat]

But... and maybe it's just me here, you don't get your spells for free in the first place. Well, not all of them.

There's a base cost for spells.

there's a base cost for the spellbook itself and to put spells into the book.

Mateials and cost for a spell is 100gp per page per spell level. A 3rd level spell is going to be 300 gp to write it into the book. Ths doesn't count learning cost outside of your new spell slot so that's another 50gp per level if the GM is being kind as the core PHB notes "many wizards jealously guard their high level spells and may charge much more, or even deny access to them altogether."

That 9K goes mighty quick.

And if your poor bastard wizard misses a saving throw and gets his spellbook nuked?

Ah man!

That's a fair point about the cost of writing the spell into the book, but how much does it really costing? If the 5th level wizard spends 600 gp to put 2 spells in his book, he's got a ton of gold left. And he doesn't need as much gear as most other classes.

As for losing the spellbook to a blown save, IIRC only if he rolls a 1 and then he loses items in order according to a chart in the DMG. (I assume we're talking 3.X, in previous editions, he's in a lot more trouble.)

 

[JoeGKushner]

That's a fair point about the cost of writing the spell into the book, but how much does it really costing? If the 5th level wizard spends 600 gp to put 2 spells in his book, he's got a ton of gold left. And he doesn't need as much gear as most other classes.

As for losing the spellbook to a blown save, IIRC only if he rolls a 1 and then he loses items in order according to a chart in the DMG. (I assume we're talking 3.X, in previous editions, he's in a lot more trouble.)

But it's more than 600 gp. It's 600 gp for the spell book. It's another 300 gp for the spells (if they're not his standards.)

Which doesn't count the fact, which has been completely ignored in almost all of these conversations about wizards, that he STILL has to roll to learn them. Easy? Yup. automatic? Nope.

And I'm going to disagree about needing gear. Some of the best magic of the game belongs to the wizards. There are whole cateogires that belong to the wizard. Rings of Protection, Bracers of Armor, etc... unless we're going wizard is just not going to get anywhere involved in any combat... that's a pretty trusting player at that point though.

 

[Stoat]

Help me with the math, because I don't have my books with me.

A wizard starts play owning a spellbook that contains all 0th level spells, 3 1st level spells and an extra 1st level spell for every point of Int. bonus. So a hypothetical Int. 16 wizard has all 0th and 6 1st level spells. Those are free, right?

And he gets 2 additional spells every time he levels. Are those free?

By 5th level, the wizard can have all 0th, 8 1st level, 4 2nd level and 2 3rd level spells without buying anything, right? Or does he have to buy a new spellbook?

As for items: Everybody is going to want a ring of protection. Bracers of Armor and Mage Armor don't stack, and Bracers+4 (equivalent to Mage Armor) are gonna set you back 16,000 gp. I'm starting to think that Mr. Wizard might be better off just making scrolls of Mage Armor until he can afford Bracers+5

I've been working under the assumption that 3.X wizards have two main limitations (1) the number of spell slots they get per day and (2) the action economy.

I'm starting to think that cheapass scrolls really reduce #1 as a limiting factor.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Let's see...

all 0-level,
1st level (wasn't clean to some as I wrote all o level and then the 1st level) charm person, summon monster I, and sleep, plus one of these spells of your choice per point of intelligence bonus: cause fear, color spray, magic missile and silent image. (Man, I had completely forgotten about this initial lack of variety.)

Each time a character gains a new wizard level, two spells to add. Can only be of a spell level they can cast.

so 5th level...

2 = 2 spells first level
3 = 2 spells 1 or 2 level
4 = 2 spells 1 or 2 level
5 = 2 spells 1 or 2 or 3 level

spellbook has 100 pages with each spell taking up one page per spell level and also has a minor cost of 15 gp.

The spells automatically gained are free.

In terms of scrolls, they are awesome. The only negative is the downtime to make them, the gold cost to do so, and the xp cost to do so. Minor stuff and I know a lot of groups that ignored it.