Heroes of Shadow Table of Contents

[kaomera]

I don't get the anti-anti-essentials hate

I think that part of the issue may be that some posters are replying to Walking Dad as a spokesman for a larger "anti-essentials crowd".

I have gotten the impression from some posters that going forward they don't want to see any material published that would be usable / applicable to the essentials sub-classes. Walking Dad seems to have taken a different approach: that he would like to see more material that is specifically not applicable to the sub-classes, specifically that he'd like to see the pre-essentials build mechanics supported by future products.

We won't know 100% until the book(s) are in our grubby little paws, but I think that we will see such support. More importantly I see no actual reason or indication that we wouldn't. However, there is a lot of such ground that doesn't really need to be included in future products, either because it's already been gone over or because it's a bit of a failed concept (in terms of overall use).

And aside from this there looks to be plenty of new material for players who aren't using essentials, although I'll admit that this does somewhat depend on your definition of "essentials". There will be those players who will see some of the material included as "damning" the book with the essentials brand.

 

[Nullzone]

Walking Dad seems to have taken a different approach: that he would like to see more material that is specifically not applicable to the sub-classes, specifically that he'd like to see the pre-essentials build mechanics supported by future products.

Which has already been established: Every time a game element comes out that has the name of your class of preference on it, you've added support to those classes. Even the essentials books themselves do this.

 

[Klaus]

Thank you for answering. I don't think the lost surge really cripples it at all, I'm surprised that with things like that character op boards that you guys didn't see the dissatifacation that the op crowd would have for it. That being said I personally feel that the shades racial utilities are like a free mullticlass that doesn't take up your multiclass slot or feats so if you have to take one feat to get your surge back big deal.

As for the racial power standard action question clearly it meant to be primarily a non combat power with situational combat uses such as retreating. In fact a party of Shades coud be very interesting. Makes me think of spectural panthers strageties.

My thinking is like changelings Shades will be most effective in a party of thier own kind where you can use thier non combat abilities to change that nature of battles. The irony of shades to is that they excell not in improving sneaky classes but in making none sneaky classes sneaky such as a shade cavalier or wizards.

I'm excited about the release of the book. I wonder fluff wise how your going to keep vrylokas and vamps seperate. My guess is by using thier greek origin of vrylokas as opposed to a bram stroker hollywood flavour for vamps. Plus as the Vrylokas are a race they will have thier own culture perhaps with greek influences.

Two things: I'm just a freelancer, I don't speak for WotC in any way, shape or form. And the racial power was nerfed from the original form. I now realize it needed a nerf, but I wonder if the pendulum swung too much in the other direction. Then again, being hidden is a powerful condition.

Many people look at the Shade and think "Rogue! Assassin! Striker!", where the free Stealth training is wasted and the surge penalty is greater. But the fluff speaks more to Controller or Leader (specially a ranged Leader like the archer warlord or prescient bard), two roles that would benefit from the free Stealth and who don't usually miss the 1 surge.

for Klaus: did you design some content for the original Assassin? A PP or ED?
My main interest in HoS is further material for the original class (and not so much for the executioner) as the online support for the assassin has been very limited so far (we have basically no new powers since the original article).

I can't comment, sorry.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ditto.

Were you being tongue-in-cheek Abdul, or is there an anonymous but growing underclass somewhere clamouring for PPs and EDs to be jettisoned?

Yeah, mostly. There was a blog a while back by one of the devs, forget which one off the top of my head, and another one on Critical Hits discussing the success or lack thereof of the design concepts behind EDs and PPs. The general take was that EDs worked out fairly well from a design perspective, while PPs are a bit too constrained. The other issue that was that apparently there was a feeling that fixing these character growth transitions to exactly level 11 and 21 is a bit constraining. The party hits level 21 for instance and all of a sudden the acquisition of ED's by all of the party members need to be worked in all at once in a single level up. This makes it a bit hard for the DM to really work it into the story line. There was some comparison with the way PrCs worked in 3.x and some sentiment that PPs in particular might be improved by being more PrC-like in the sense of not being fixed at a specific level. Obviously how that would be accomplished is an open question.

So there has been some grumbling and dissatisfaction in the 4e developer community about the rigidity of these mechanics. I wouldn't say people think they are terrible or a disaster or anything like that. Just more a hankering for a greater degree of design freedom. In other words perhaps in some hypothetical future 5e some of the devs would prefer to see the tier concept made more flexible so that different characters could evolve in a more organic way and that some form of 'class add-ons' of whatever sort could be built in a greater variety of ways.

So yeah, I was joking about Klaus being/not being on that bandwagon. OTOH it would be interesting to hear his perspective on that subject since he has experience with developing PPs and EDs.

What about it Klaus? Got any insight on how that is working out from a dev perspective?

 

[fanboy2000]

Or does anyone disagreee about that?!

Well, yes, some people do. And they engaged him in discussion about it. It's ok to disagree with people.

 

[gyor]

Two things: I'm just a freelancer, I don't speak for WotC in any way, shape or form. And the racial power was nerfed from the original form. I now realize it needed a nerf, but I wonder if the pendulum swung too much in the other direction. Then again, being hidden is a powerful condition.

Many people look at the Shade and think "Rogue! Assassin! Striker!", where the free Stealth training is wasted and the surge penalty is greater. But the fluff speaks more to Controller or Leader (specially a ranged Leader like the archer warlord or prescient bard), two roles that would benefit from the free Stealth and who don't usually miss the 1 surge.



I can't comment, sorry.

Interesting I'm going to have to relook at the fluff. If you look at FR the birth place of shades the most powerful well known shades are wizards and/or clerics of shar. Aka the twelve princes of shade and thier father. Another shade was an Swordmage possibly the most likely defender to take ritual casting. Even the fluff just presented says controller/leader as these classes are the most likely to have ritual casting as a class feature or to choose to take on thier own and of course the shades use a ritual to turn themselves into shades. Its Shadar-Kia that make more sense as rogues and assassins were as Shades fit more as Nethermancers or Death Clerics. Still if a Shade wished to become a melee striker Blackguard makes more sense as scarificing life force for power fits the blackguards fluff and abilities and Paladins are less likely to notice the lost surge. Also Blackguards would probably be more likely to know rituals then rogues from a fluff perpective trained in Religion as Paladins are. If I played a Shade ritual casting is a must for me. It makes sense now. Thank you.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Well, yes, some people do. And they engaged him in discussion about it. It's ok to disagree with people.

Indeed.

The ToC seems to indicate that there is, in fact, stuff in there not usable by Essentials PCs. The section entitled Cleric Powers springs immediately to mind, and there may be more, I don't know.

But we've been down this road, many times in this thread alone, and both sides appear to be sticking to their guns and not backing down. I'm done arguing. People are going to believe what they want to believe.

 

[gyor]

I really hope the blackguard has feats that improve his servant of vice. A succubus or a skull lord would be cool.

 

[Walking Dad]

Indeed.

The ToC seems to indicate that there is, in fact, stuff in there not usable by Essentials PCs. The section entitled Cleric Powers springs immediately to mind, and there may be more, I don't know.

But we've been down this road, many times in this thread alone, and both sides appear to be sticking to their guns and not backing down. I'm done arguing. People are going to believe what they want to believe.

Hey, I stopped arguing before you.
We should all just wait until it is out. If I was wrong I will happily admit it then and be glad about it. And if not, I'm here to get apologies from various people win/win

 

[Knightfall]

I'm really eager to see the preview coming up on Friday.

Classes!!!

And then races on Monday...

I've very excited about HoS!