A
amerigoV
Guest
I'll take a look at that - thanks!
I'll take a look at that - thanks!
If they're interested in using 4e's cosmology - yes. If not, no.
There is a bit of overlap between 3E and 4e cosmologies - for example, parts of the Abyss and the Nine Hells resemble one another across editions - but the overlap is not all that great.
Kingreaper
Adventurer
Definitely recommend Underdark. When I first looked through it, I was disappointed at the lack of crunch.
But when I started actually reading the fluff, I found I really liked it. It's a nice, compact, look at all the different forces at play there.
But when I started actually reading the fluff, I found I really liked it. It's a nice, compact, look at all the different forces at play there.
Honestly, I think the answer to that is "yes".
I've been constantly running D&D games in my version of the World of Greyhawk for the past fifteen years or so (and there were earlier games as well). In that time, I've gone through 2E, 3E, 3.5E and now 4E. Before 4E, I used the Great Wheel cosmology to some extent. That is, I used the demiplane of Shadow and the Astral Plane, and most of the rest was pretty much ignored: my adventures were set mostly on Greyhawk.
The influence of the devils and demons could be seen on Greyhawk, and likewise that of the deities, but where they lived didn't matter so much.
The 4E cosmology and mythology was a revelation. The ancient war between the Primordials and the Gods - so reminiscent of the Greek mythology I grew up reading - really struck a chord. What has helped that is through the later books and especially the adventures, the Dawn War informs what is going on today. With Greyhawk, as it didn't have a real creation mythology (despite nods to past days by Erik Mona, such as in the Whispering Cairn), incorporating material from the 4E creation myth into the campaign hasn't been that hard. Obviously, some things have been altered, but I have certainly been inspired by the 4E works.
It is made a lot easier, of course, by the fact that I am using Greyhawk, as so much of the mythology of 4E is derived from older forms of D&D (which Greyhawk pretty much exemplified). When it discusses Vecna, Acererak and Orcus, you're talking about three beings that have put their marks on Greyhawk before, and integrating them is a lot easier than in some other realms.
Whilst the 4E mythology has existed since its launch, it hasn't always been presented well: you get hints in the Monster Manual, but there's definitely too much crunch over fluff in that book. Once you start getting to the later books, the balance shifts more towards the descriptive and evocative text, enough so that the Monster Vault has very many interesting descriptions of monsters.
A recent discussion on RPG Geek had one poster saying how he really liked the expanded descriptions of the 2E Monstrous Compendium. There's no doubt they're expanded - many, many words on a page (and few stats, because that's how AD&D worked). However, I find myself preferring the Monster Vault descriptions which focus on the interesting things about the creatures and how they can be used in adventures. If you haven't seen the Monster Vault descriptions, go borrow a copy: it's pretty impressive.
"Don't try to tell me there's a soul that can be redeemed inside that monster. An orc's little better than a demon." - Caiphas, paladin of Pelor.
Cheers!
TheAuldGrump
First Post
I think that APlus was trying to be helpful. Converting 4e back to 3e is not as easy as it might be, so he suggested an alternate route for getting additional 3.X material. So, he was not feeding the flame war.
Now me on the other hand... I like pouring oil on troubled waters, then lighting it.
(Surprise! It wasn't oil, it was Greek Fire!) Tiles really don't care what system they are used in, and the number of folks that I know who use the WotC tiles with Pathfinder is larger than the number that I know who play 4e, total. (What can I say, PFRPG grabbed us.) At the local Borders these are the best selling of the Essentials line. Probably worth grabbing.
Ditto for minis, get the figs, chuck the cards. Not great minis, but not everyone paints, so....
Other than that... I got nuthin'
The Auld Grump, who doesn't really add to the flame wars much, but had been sitting on the Greek Fire line for a while....
Dice4Hire
First Post
I think the 4E cosmology can be easily imported to many fantasy roleplaying systems, so that opens up about a half-dozen books.
Underdark could easily be used in most settings.
But the class and crunch books are really not exportable in any way. I have use 4E monsters in my 3.5 games with some success.
Underdark could easily be used in most settings.
But the class and crunch books are really not exportable in any way. I have use 4E monsters in my 3.5 games with some success.
Trevalon Moonleirion
Explorer
This may sound like an odd choice, but at the very least, see if it's in a bargain bin, or at a library: the DMG 2.
There is so much useful, fun, and ultimately universal GMing advice in that book. Even some of the crunchier bits, like skill challenges could be adapted to another d20 system. (There's a neat challenge that's basically stretched into an entire adventure, revolving around sneaking through an enemy city--it's quite cool, and very non-standard).
Chapters 4 and 5 will be a wash, but...yeah, see if you can at least flip through it somewhere for a half hour.
There is so much useful, fun, and ultimately universal GMing advice in that book. Even some of the crunchier bits, like skill challenges could be adapted to another d20 system. (There's a neat challenge that's basically stretched into an entire adventure, revolving around sneaking through an enemy city--it's quite cool, and very non-standard).
Chapters 4 and 5 will be a wash, but...yeah, see if you can at least flip through it somewhere for a half hour.
Fifth Element
Legend
But given the "90% crunch" mentioned in the post, it seems unlikely there is a sufficient degree of familiarity with 4E products to be of any real help. The aforementioned Hammerfast and Vor Rukoth, for instance, are 0% crunch as I recall. There are plenty of 4E products that have a very generous amount of fluff, so claims of crunch-onliness are misguided.
Edit: Vor Rukoth at least is not 0% crunch, it might be 3%. Can't remember if there's anything crunchy in Hammerfast offhand.
I will second Worlds and Monsters - I think it's a great book, and the only D&D book I know off that talks about campaign and monster design from a straightforward metagame point of view, rather than from the internal point of view of the gameworld.
I wish WotC would write for GMs in this sort of way more often!
I wouldn't especially recommend its companion, however - Races & Classes - which I think is much closer to a pay-to-preview for 4e.
I wish WotC would write for GMs in this sort of way more often!
I wouldn't especially recommend its companion, however - Races & Classes - which I think is much closer to a pay-to-preview for 4e.
