How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[pemerton]

No, like Bats, she (and her future beau) had narrative plot protection (or in layman's terms, she got lucky

And KM's point is that martial classes, as rules constructs for RPGs, should bring their own luck. Not depend upon the player getting lucky with his/her D20s, and/or having a generous GM.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

kill rolls aren't another matter - they are the very matter at hand! In 3E, a fighter can only climb if his/her player makes a successful roll on a d20, whereas a wizard can climb with no chance of failure if his/her player has ticked the "spider climb" box at the start of play. So the player who has opted to bring Merlin to the table is better able to emulate Batman than is the player who has opted to bring Batman to the table. This is the problem KM is talking about.

The solution, as KM says, is to give martial PCs powers that don't require good dice rolls in order for those PCs to fill their designated roles:

Or have fewer spells that replace skills.

Or have most spells that emulate skills operate based on some kind of class level basis.

Or make spellcasters' "learning spells" decisions more focused- like what happens with Specialization- or more randomized- as per previous editions.

Or, or, or.

"Magicing-up" the warrior isn't the only solution. It may not even be the best.

Spider Climb, to me, isn't that big of a deal. By itself. I've seen many films and read many stories in which spellcasters did essentially the same thing.

OTOH, if your game is full of spells that let you best any skill at any time...and there is insufficient "scarcity" of spells to make doing so a realistic opportunity cost, there is a problem.

I'm just not convinced that there is insufficient scarcity.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And KM's point is that martial classes, as rules constructs for RPGs, should bring their own luck. Not depend upon the player getting lucky with his/her D20s, and/or having a generous GM.

I don't care about that one way or the other, having played in systems that do and don't do that.

I'm just talking about this notion that Bats is somehow more than human within the context of his universe; the notion that by virtue of having a base class you are extraordinary, and thus can't be just a "Farmboy" or the like...that this is somehow hard-coded into the rules.

 

[Mort]

I'm just talking about this notion that Bats is somehow more than human within the context of his universe; the notion that by virtue of having a base class you are extraordinary, and thus can't be just a "Farmboy" or the like...that this is somehow hard-coded into the rules.

I immediately thought of this from a GURPS perspective. an ordinary human is what 75-100 points or less? Batman is a 1000 point character (maybe 500 points in early incarnations but still far enough above "ordinary human" for the term to be meaningless) no less points than Superman, just built very differently. Since he started that way, saying he's "only human" is misleading; he's human in a way pretty much no other human could ever be.

As for having a base class making you extraordinary - well it does. Because you have a base class - that's the whole point. You are not "just a farmer" you are a fighter who happens to farm, or a wizard who happens to be a shopkeeper - there's a big difference. Just like Superman is a farmboy, but saying he's just a farmboy is somewhat ludicrous.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I immediately thought of this from a GURPS perspective. an ordinary human is what 75-100 points or less? Batman is a 1000 point character (maybe 500 points in early incarnations but still far enough above "ordinary human" for the term to be meaningless) no less points than Superman, just built very differently. Since he started that way, saying he's "only human" is misleading; he's human in a way pretty much no other human could ever be.

He's the same in HERO as well.

However, Batman is also an experienced character. His stats are the result of years of training.

NOT of being superhuman from the start.

Take a look at Batman Year One and you get a far lower point total.

Take a look at Batman as a kid shortly after he became an orphan, and his point total will be lower still...probably indistinguishable from any other rich kid you'd care to stat out.

As for having a base class making you extraordinary - well it does. Because you have a base class - that's the whole point. You are not "just a farmer" you are a fighter who happens to farm, or a wizard who happens to be a shopkeeper - there's a big difference. Just like Superman is a farmboy, but saying he's just a farmboy is somewhat ludicrous.

The original assertion put forth by those like Hussar was that the notion of your 1st level fighter being fresh off the farm was ludicrous AND that this was hard-coded into the rules.

My contention is that this notion is incorrect, and provided exemplars of low-level fighters who were STILL working on the farm. (No info was provided stating such NPCs had ever left their towns.)

Then there were assertions that by virtue of being NPCs, they were per se normal, and that only PCs were extraordinary.

That's having it both ways.

As for Super-Farm-Boy- of course he's not normal- he's a solar powered alien. He is what he is from the moment he landed on Earth.

Batman had to make himself work to become what he is.

 

[Hussar]

* Actually, Hussar, which is it? Is she exceptional because she's a fighter or is she merely normal because she's just a nameless, statless NPC?

She's exceptional in that system because she has a class. Normal humans DON'T HAVE CLASSES. How is this hard to understand. Normal humans are zero level. Even your town militia is ZERO LEVEL. In AD&D, normal humans are zero level. Normal humans don't have six stats, they only have one (Int). Normal humans can't gain levels (see the followers rules for more on that.).

Gaining a class makes you no longer a normal human in that system.

I don't care about that one way or the other, having played in systems that do and don't do that.

I'm just talking about this notion that Bats is somehow more than human within the context of his universe; the notion that by virtue of having a base class you are extraordinary, and thus can't be just a "Farmboy" or the like...that this is somehow hard-coded into the rules.

Because, hard coded into the rules, a classed character (by this I mean PC classed character, not NPC class) has access to abilties that are more than a normal person can have.

No matter what, that farmboy is either a zero level commoner or a 1st level commoner. In either case, a 1st level fighter has abilities that that 1st level commoner CANNOT have by the rules. The 1st level fighter is built with a higher point buy, has enough hit points to walk away from attacks that instantly kill the farm boy, on and on and on.

Is a 1st level fighter Superman? Nope. Of course not. But, by dint of having abilities and features that a normal human cannot possibly have without first gaining that class, he's no longer just some farmer who picked up a sword.

BTW, IIRC, female humans in AD&D can have percentile strength, but, they are limited to a certain percentage (and I cannot remember that number).

 

[Mort]

He's the same in HERO as well.

However, Batman is also an experienced character. His stats are the result of years of training.

NOT of being superhuman from the start.

That's backstory though, kind of like saying Peter Parker was a normal human before he was bit by a spider or saying Hal Jordan was a normal human before he got the green lantern ring. It doesn't change the fact that by the time you get to the actual character (and not the backstory) the term "normal human" no longer applies. Batman's backstory just happens to be unusually fleshed out.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

No, what I said was:

Tried, yes- but in the former, the shot never hit him because of the intervention of others, ergo it cannot be evidence of his superhuman-ness.

The problem I have here is that in the sniper situation Batman set everything up. There was no outside intervention by others. He was the one who directed placement of things. He set it up so that the sniper only had on viable sniping location. He assigned Robin to stay there and ambush the guy. He planned the whole situation out on his own and set things into motion so that he would win. He was confident enough to go to the target area and let his less skilled protege that he personally trained fight the sniper as practice.

In the second, he took cover- as any human might- and survived. Had he survived without taking cover, you might have an argument in your favor. But what he did was no more remarkable than a bomb-squad tech surviving an unplanned detonation in his bomb-suit.

Batman discovered the near detonation bomb, reacted lightning fast by jumping into a nearby safe and locked himself inside. He then road out the explosion, proceeded to preformed an impromptu safe escape and came out practically unharmed.

Safe escapes are one of the most dangerous tricks escape artist can perform. Most professional escape artists only do the trick after a lot of preparation and a tons of practice.

Remember, the point was whether he was or was not superhuman. Not being shot is no evidence at all. Surviving an explosion from which he took cover is at best ambiguous.

Batman's "superhuman-ness" is in his ability to plan, set up things in such a way that things will go the way he wants, react to any unforeseeable circumstances faster than humanly possible and has all of the skills to do all that he wants.

No, I'm not.

The problem lies in your second point- he survived the threats, but he did so by mundane reasons.

Mundane reasons that in most cases require multiple of people working together to pull off. Batman did it as one person.

Look at the history of some of the RW's leaders and see just how many shootings and bombings they've survived. Are they superhuman for doing so? Absolutely not. Some of the attempts were thwarted by intervention- as the sniper attack on Bats was. Mubarek, for instance, survived 6 attempts, including an assault by multiple AK-47 wielding assailants.

An as you point out Mubarek had a lot of help, dozens if not hundreds of men watching his back. Batman stops the assassin going after him on his own. One man doing what 50 people are normally required is more than just human its "super"human

Some people have survived bombings by being protected within bomb resistant areas or just the bodies of others, like the Iraqui journalist Muaid Lami who survived an explosion that killed 5 people next to him with relatively minor chest and arm wounds. Again, this is mundane...as in, not supernatural or superhuman.

And often enough they only survived based on pure luck. The equivalent of rolling a 20 on a reflex save. If that situation were to be repeated Muaid Lami might not survive. Put a bomb beside Batman 20 times and 20 times Batman will survive with nary a scratch.

And as for your 3rd point, yes, they don't count because they could be done by anyone. If literally anyone can do it, then it isn't evidence of being superhuman. It isn't evidence of anything at all.

The problem is that while anyone can occasionally survive if they are lucky, Batman is more than occasionally lucky.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's backstory though, kind of like saying Peter Parker was a normal human before he was bit by a spider or saying Hal Jordan was a normal human before he got the green lantern ring. It doesn't change the fact that by the time you get to the actual character (and not the backstory) the term "normal human" no longer applies. Batman's backstory just happens to be unusually fleshed out.

That's very different: Parker was changed at the basest level into something non-human. His powers are- since the change- an intimate part of his biology. He may or may not be a mutant in Marvel's terminology, but he is definitely beyond human.

Jordan, like all Lanterns, has an innate fearlessness. Beyond that, he's a trained test pilot, possibly a decent brawler. Nothing unusual there. After meeting the prereq of fearlessness, a Lantern candidate need only be chosen to bear the ring. But fearlessness in humans isn't a marker of superhumanity. Quite often, it is a marker of psychopathy.

Batman has no mutation, innate or induced. He has no alien tech that works essentially as a wish-granting device (with an engineered flaw). All he has is his skills and training.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

She's exceptional in that system because she has a class. Normal humans DON'T HAVE CLASSES. How is this hard to understand. Normal humans are zero level. Even your town militia is ZERO LEVEL.

Contrasted with

Kamikaze Midget post #149 this thread

No D&D character is just a dirt farmer done good.

Yet we have evidence of a fighter still being an utterly nameless "dirt farmer done good" in a published AD&D adventure.

The point is that if you can be a Lvl 1 fighter and still be serf, there is no reason why you can't be a fighter who was a serf yesterday and has just started his adventuring career.

Did you ever look at the AD&D DMG before asserting "normal" NPC had no stats? Pgs 100-106 have racial adjustments to stats, as well as minimum ability scores for classes...AND for laborers, mercenaries and merchants- the lack of stats in the adventures is because generating stats for NPCs not crucial to the main plot is left to the DM.

As for militias being strictly zero level, I give you these 2 counterexamples:

Forgotten Realms Adventures, 2Ed, p 82.
City of Daerlun

...The guard is supplemented by a local militia, numbering some 2,000 level 1 fighters...

and

City of Tantras p110
...Tantras can field a militia reserve of 6,000 men and women, all F1s.

Those are in addition to all the regular F1s in the guard, watches and other regular forces in those cities.
IOW, a 1st level Fighter is not all that uncommon or unusual, about on par with someone who has entered the armed forces of a modern day country. I'd say that this is pretty good evidence that normal humans can and do have class levels.

The problem I have here is that in the sniper situation Batman set everything up. There was no outside intervention by others. He was the one who directed placement of things. He set it up so that the sniper only had on viable sniping location. He assigned Robin to stay there and ambush the guy. He planned the whole situation out on his own and set things into motion so that he would win. He was confident enough to go to the target area and let his less skilled protege that he personally trained fight the sniper as practice.

First, that happens every other week on Burn Notice- it's a standard action TV/movie trope (see X-Files and many, many others). They even do this in standard police dramas- they JUST did it on Criminal Minds: Suspect Behavior- though the backup charged with taking down the sniper is usually other cops.

Second, if Robin (not the adult Nightwing, but one of the teens that followed him) could take him out solo, he probably wasn't that much of a threat to begin with...all of which would factor into his assessment and decision as to whether to put himself into the "trap" as "bait."

Batman discovered the near detonation bomb, reacted lightning fast by jumping into a nearby safe and locked himself inside. He then road out the explosion, proceeded to preformed an impromptu safe escape and came out practically unharmed.

Safe escapes are one of the most dangerous tricks escape artist can perform. Most professional escape artists only do the trick after a lot of preparation and a tons of practice.

What's your point? Confronted with certain death by explosion, who WOULDN'T jump into the safe? One thing at a time- survive the explosion, then survive whatever predicament you got into while surviving the explosion.

And as for getting out, not only has he been long established as a competent safe-cracker (even in the freakin' TV series), Batman packs not only lockpicks in his utility belt, but other devices to get past locks, like mini-torches and acid capsules. AND a 5-10 minute air supply as well.

There was no way he wasn't getting out.

Batman's "superhuman-ness" is in his ability to plan, set up things in such a way that things will go the way he wants, react to any unforeseeable circumstances faster than humanly possible and has all of the skills to do all that he wants.

Standard action-hero trope.

Mundane reasons that in most cases require multiple of people working together to pull off. Batman did it as one person.

Nope- by your own description, he did ONE solo. The other, he had help. As for the one he did solo, again, that's not that big a surprise. Its another one that pops up in action stuff repeatedly- the last time I remember seeing it was in CSI: Miami, "Crime Wave" in which Horatio and others go into a bank vault to escape a tsunami. Classic narrative plot protection.

Batman stops the assassin going after him on his own.

You said he had help from Robin. Which is it?

Put a bomb beside Batman 20 times and 20 times Batman will survive with nary a scratch.

Again, this is classic narrative protection. 99 times out of 100, the main character does not get killed, especially in his own book/movie/show.

Batman is more than occasionally lucky.

Fortune favors the prepared mind. Also, plot protection favors the main character.

How often did MacGyver conveniently find exactly what he needed to escape whatever room he was in? The answer is, nearly every time. Those times he didn't, his immediate escape wasn't crucial to the plot because someone was going to let him out.