How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm trying to figure out how "standard action hero trope" translates to "normal," considering action heroes are almost all by definition larger then life characters.

Batman - and John McClain, and James Bond, and many other "Human" heroes - are superhuman. Literally, they are humans that are rather super, or superior. Yes, they have the element of being "human," but they are also very clearly "better then human."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm trying to figure out how "standard action hero trope" translates to "normal," considering action heroes are almost all by definition larger then life characters.

Because the people they are are the result of nothing but extreme training, which, within the context of their respective fictionverses, means what they do is within the possibilities of any other human on the planet with the same training & gadgetry. Bond isn't unique- he's one of several elite agents of one of almost 200 counties in the world...and we know that even GB has agents in training for his spot, since other 00 agents have been killed and replaced.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Because the people they are are the result of nothing but extreme training, which, within the context of their respective fictionverses, means what they do is within the possibilities of any other human on the planet with the same training & gadgetry. Bond isn't unique- he's one of several elite agents of one of almost 200 counties in the world...and we know that even GB has agents in training for his spot, since other 00 agents have been killed and replaced.

That's blatantly false.

Certainly Bond is one of several elite agents, but he's always the best. While he hypothetically lies withing the "possibilities" of other people, at the same time, nobody ever hits his stride. James Bond has never lost.

The same goes for all action heroes, and for Iron Man, and for Batman, and for John McClane, and for Rambo, and for every other "human" character. While they are all "human," they are also all unquestioningly better then all other "humans."

You put way, way too much emphasis on a person's origins.

 

[Kingreaper]

Michael Jordan might disagree, as would his MD and his momma. I think I see where your problem is.

1) Michael Jordan knows he's exceptional.
2) Michael Jordan's MD will know that he's exceptional very well, because Michael Jordan's lifestyle has put different strains on it from those you would find on your average modern, western, human.
3) No-one's mother thinks that their kid is just a normal human. Mother's tend to think their kids are exceptional even when they aren't.


You seem to be mistaking "normal human" for "human"

If I have a car that can go 0-300 in 1 second, it's still a car. But you wouldn't call it a normal car.

 

[Raven Crowking]

James Bond has never lost.

I take it you never saw On Her Majesty's Secret Service. In the final scene, Bond's newly wed wife is sniped down and dies in his arms.

The incident is again referenced in License to Kill.

It is very clear that, in this at least, Bond lost.

See also how he fails to save Vesper in Casino Royale, and how that subsequently affects him in Quantum of Solace. Again, quite clear that Bond can fail, and that he can lose things he cannot replace.



RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

You seem to be mistaking "normal human" for "human"

Agreed. "Normal" is definitely the shifting sand in this discussion.

But, for the sake of argument, saying that an Epic character isn't a "normal" human =/= that the character could not have begun that journey as a farmer just off the turnip truck.

For the "Batman is not a normal human" argument to disprove DA's main thesis, you would have to demonstrate that Bruce Wayne wasn't "normal" the night his parents got shot. I.e., at the start of his adventuring career.

Focusing on what Michael Jordan is now in no way suggests that Michael Jordan was a basketball star when he first touched a ball. The end product is not where a person (or character) begins.


RC

 

[Celtavian]

First I'm going to respond to the threads original topic:

The "Fighter/Mage-User Same Team Power Disparity at High Skill Levels" is largely a modern western concept born from D&D itself.

It existed long before D&D. Not sure where you are getting this from. I can name dozens of examples of myth and older fantasy literature against this assertion.

In Arthurian Legend, Merlin was roughly on par with the various major knights. His only magical powers were prophecy, casting protective enchantments and dispelling curses. Several of the major knights had such knightly purity that they could not be cursed and had such skill at arms that they had no need of protective charms. Merlin could not destroy towns on a whim.

Not true at all. Merlin was always a powerful figure feared by the common knights. He was instrumental in Arthur's rise to power and manipulated the course of events to allow for Excalibur to be had and for Arthur to come to power. In the stories Merlin's motivations were not to be as powerful as possible like a player character one upping everyone else as you see in a common D&D group. Would have made for a rather boring story.

Merlin used his great power to elevate others and manipulate the affairs of men. He was heads and tails above them as an entity in both power and prestige.

In Wuxia, if there was a sorcerer capable of easily leveling towns on the heroes side, the warriors were one man armies capable of balancing on a leaf floating in the middle of a lake during a monsoon.

In the Anime Slayers, Lina and Gourry had roughly the same level of skill in there respective classes. When facing a band of a dozen brigands Lina would cast a spell or Gourry would defeat them with a show of swordsmanship to the same result. As for the dragon slaying spell Dragon Slave that Lina found while treasure hunting? Gourry had the Sword of Light, a weapon that could critically injure Demon Gods.

Agree about anime.


The wizard as a power is as old as time itself. Whether from the mythical figures of Circe or the wizard like gods of ancient myth, wizard type figures were always beings of great power that interfered with mortals for their own whims. They weren't adventuring characters hanging out with the local fighter as part of a group.

That is something from D&D.

 

[nightwyrm]

Since wuxia and anime has been brought up, let's take a look at a how eastern fantasy genre handles this. I think a major difference between east and west fantasy is the lack of a sharp division between supernatural and non-supernatural in eastern fantasy.

Take martial arts for instance, certain works will have martial arts that's more or less doable by real people. In more fantastic works, martial arts will start incorporating chi and quivering palm type stuff. And in truly fantastic works, martial artists can fly or gain prolonged youth and immortality. But all three works will call it martial arts. There's no "mundane" or "supernatural" martial arts label.

From an eastern fantasy POV, supernatural and mundane are a continuum, not two separate categories. "Supernatural" abilities is obtainable by taking a "mundane" skillset to the extreme (normal people can jump, martial artists can jump to the top of trees) or is treated as just another learnable skillset like swordfighting. This is where the common "train real hard and you too can fly" anime trope comes from. An underlying philosophy or assumption in most eastern works is that everything is learnable and doable if you put in the effort and/or have a teacher. There is no magic/mundane boundary that is uncrossable if you aren't born with magic (in general of course, specific works may have specific restrictions).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

For the "Batman is not a normal human" argument to disprove DA's main thesis, you would have to demonstrate that Bruce Wayne wasn't "normal" the night his parents got shot. I.e., at the start of his adventuring career.

...OR that at some point after he started- something supernatural like a magic ritual, a radioactive spider bite, super-soldier serum, a shower of chemicals charged with the electricity from a lightning strike, a gamma or cosmic ray burst, an infusion of alien nanotech, etc.- gave him innate (not trained) abilities that would be otherwise impossible for any human to have.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You seem to be mistaking "normal human" for "human"

In the context in which I made that statement, MJ is as normal as you or I- he just worked harder.

Pro B-Ball scouts & talent evaluators say it takes a minimum of 10,000 hours of intense practice to reach their full potential...and a similar regimen to maintain their skills. That's what he has to do rain, shine, travel, special events, and so forth. And over that time, he needs to maintain his health, both physical & mental.

MJ did so. He is an exceptional B-ball player (the G.O.A.T.?), but he is a normal human.

A guitarist doing Q&A at a guitar show asked the question of the audience, "How many of you picked up the guitar to learn to play like me?" Some hands went up. "Well, it won't happen," he said- there was an audible gasp- "because unlike me, you're not going to practice right after you get up, right after breakfast, right after lunch, before dinner, and as the last thing you do before you turn out the lights."