D&D 4E Setting and scenarios in 4e

[pemerton]

This post was made on a long thread in the industry forum, but seemed interesting enough to pull out into a more general environment:

(One of ) Stated 4e Design Goals: Make it easier to DM

Standard GM Responsibilities: Running the game, creating campaign through framework of PCs, NPCs, adventures, & campaign setting.

WotC View on Adventures:
Don’t generate enough revenue to justify large focus in business plan.

Customer-base View on WotC Adventures: The ones that are published or released in Dungeon are not considered above-average (generally speaking)

Campaign Settings: Current business plan is targeted number of books and then move on.

WotC’s business plan provides limited support of two “cornerstone” RPG elements: Adventures & Setting.

Campaign sustainability, & by extension, 4e longevity & popularity requires adventures and setting.

Expecting the GMs to handle those elements on their own appeals to the homebrew-style GM, yet requires greater GM time investment. For many GMs, this now runs counter to the Stated 4e Design Goal cited above.

Unless WotC believes that the majority of D&D players opt for a beer-n-pretzels style “pickup game” approach to D&D, (which, like it or not, a large portion of the RPG fanbase views as a “shallower” RPG experience), it would seem that WotC should be doing one of the following:
1. Providing greater quantity and better quality support in terms of adventures & setting.
2. Encouraging 3PP to fill these two niches so they can focus on the game elements that best fit their business plan.

This actually relates back to a long thread that took place a month or two ago on the General forums.

As I argued in that thread, I think that 4e - with its emphasis on responsive scene framing by the GM, rather than exploration, as the way to drive the game forward - in some ways is better suited to an improv/"just in time style" of GMing.

So rather than (1) or (2) above, there is an option (3): WotC produces books that give GMs more support and guidance in running this sort of game. The PoL backstory in the 4e books is a good start (I don't mean the Nentir Vale, which in my view is nothing very special, but rather the myth and history about the Dawn War, fallen empires, King Elidyr and the gnolls, etc); there is a lot of material here that a GM can pick up and incorporate.

There are also the suggested encounters in the first two MMs.

But a lot more could be done (both HeroQuest 2nd ed and The Dying Earth are examples of the sort of advice that can be given along these lines).

I think the following quote from Ron Edwards is also applicable:

From Over the Edge (Atlas Games, 1994; author is Jonathan Tweet):

When I first played OTE, it was on about ten minutes' notice. I had some notes on major background conspiracies, a few images of various scenes, and a primitive version of the current mechanics. No map, no descriptions of businesses, people, places, or any of the other useful tidbits that are crammed into the previous two chapters. . .

Now, however, you have a background explaining who, what, where, and when. You're in a completely different situation from where I was back on that first manic evening. . .

Not having anything written as a guide (or crutch), I let my imagination loose. You have the mixed blessing of having many pages of background prepared for you. If you use the information in this book as a springboard for your own wild dreams, then it is a blessing. If you limit yourself to what I've dreamed up, it's a curse.​

All I see, I'm afraid, is the curse. . . I'm not saying that improvisation is better or more Narrativist than non-improvisational play. I am saying, however, that if playing this particular game worked so wonderfully to free the participants into wildly successful brainstorming during play ... and since the players were a core source during this event, as evident in the game's Dedication and in various examples of play ... then why present the results of the play-experience as the material for another person's experience?​

I think that D&D has had a bit too much of a habit of presenting other people's play experiences as the material for play. The discussions in Worlds and Monsters about the core conceits of the D&D world suggested that WotC was actually looking at taking D&D in a different direction, and a lot of the way that PoL has been handled (including in sourcebooks like The Plane Above and The Underdark) is consistent with that (not all - some of it, like the Outer Isles discussed in the Plane Above, do come across more as classic setting material for exploration-focused play).

But WotC seems to have trouble writing play advice to support that play style best suited to the game it has designed. At least in my view.

 

[Balesir]

If you mixed advice such as that on Bangs and Kickers in Sorceror with solid guidelines for constructing maps for tactical encounters (and not just combats), a deeper and more complete system for Skill Challenges and ideas for using seldom used rules like Disease (see Monstro's blog on the WotC Community for suggestions such as using disease tracks for curses and social climbing!), I think you could have a very welcome addition to D&D 4E.

 

[Balesir]

Double post - sorry.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I think that D&D has had a bit too much of a habit of presenting other people's play experiences as the material for play. The discussions in Worlds and Monsters about the core conceits of the D&D world suggested that WotC was actually looking at taking D&D in a different direction, and a lot of the way that PoL has been handled (including in sourcebooks like The Plane Above and The Underdark) is consistent with that (not all - some of it, like the Outer Isles discussed in the Plane Above, do come across more as classic setting material for exploration-focused play).

But WotC seems to have trouble writing play advice to support that play style best suited to the game it has designed. At least in my view.

I agree with you completely. I've been saying for ages that what 4E needed desperately was a book on "Dungeon Craft," similar to the column of the same name that ran in Dragon magazine, and then moved over to Dungeon magazine. The 4E version should be providing a setting complete enough for use, but it should also be showing the decision making process, options not taken, etc.

4E is very easy to homebrew for experienced DM's that have already absorbed the lessons that such a book would teach.

 

[Riastlin]

I'm all for making things easier for new DMs in order to encourage more people to move behind the screen. I think there is a perception that DM'ing is just plain hard and a lot of work (not necessarily accurate mind you, but a perception all the same).

That being said, I'm not sure that more published adventures for store shelves is the way to go. By and large, its been my experience that aside from the mega-adventures like Revenge of the Giants, etc., the published mods just sit on the shelves. Naturally this could just be my area and every area will differ, but it seems as though published mods are not much of a money maker.

Additionally, there are a wealth of resources available online, even through WotC's site. Perhaps a few "free" mods would be nice, but even a one-month DDi sub would get you far more material, for less money, than buying even one mod off the shelf.

Setting books are a bit more appropriate in my mind although again, I'm not sure we need individual books for all of the different regions in the Realms or Eberron, etc. Personally, I think that the general campaign setting books are enough material and that we don't need additional books (after all, how much do we really want to spend on these books which are likely to be $30 a pop at least). So, I wouldn't really mind more settings (i.e. Ravenloft, Greyhawk, etc.) but I think their money is better placed elsewhere when it comes to the smaller subset books. For those areas, they should look to Dungeon or Dragon if anything.

Just my 2 coppers.

 

[delericho]

That being said, I'm not sure that more published adventures for store shelves is the way to go. By and large, its been my experience that aside from the mega-adventures like Revenge of the Giants, etc., the published mods just sit on the shelves. Naturally this could just be my area and every area will differ, but it seems as though published mods are not much of a money maker.

This was one of the major drivers of the OGL thing back in the day - WotC had hoped companies would do the adventure support for them, since adventures tended to sell poorly. Of course, it didn't quite work out like that...

Paizo and Goodman (and others) have shown that adventures can and do sell. However, the sales those companies would require to consider a product a 'success' are probably not what WotC have in mind.

Additionally, there are a wealth of resources available online, even through WotC's site. Perhaps a few "free" mods would be nice, but even a one-month DDi sub would get you far more material, for less money, than buying even one mod off the shelf.

Very true.

In all honesty, I don't think it matters whether the adventures are available in-store or solely through the DDI.

I do think it's important that WotC do provide adventure support, and I have long considered WotC's offerings in this area to be substandard. (That's not new with 4e, by the way - it goes back at least as far as "Speaker in Dreams".)

Setting books are a bit more appropriate in my mind although again, I'm not sure we need individual books for all of the different regions in the Realms or Eberron, etc.

Actually, I think WotC have probably gone the wrong way with this. Instead of providing a single "big picture" book that tries to cover an entire setting (continent, or even world), I suspect more DMs would find more use in a similarly-sized supplement that provides a detailed overview of a fairly constrained area. The "Nentir Vale Gazeteer" sounded quite a lot like what I had in mind.

Ideally, such a product would include not just the details of the one region in question (including several detailed settlements, and a multitude of adventure hooks), but also some sort of "how to" guide, so that DMs can apply the principles involved to generate their own settings for future games quickly and effectively.

(Another example would be "Kingmaker on steroids" - take one of the Kingmaker adventures (for Pathfinder), but expand the area quite a bit and, crucially, provide a lot more detail about the various areas. Essentially, provide enough material for months of play - even if the product is then exhausted and not to be used again.)

 

[Riastlin]

I do think it's important that WotC do provide adventure support, and I have long considered WotC's offerings in this area to be substandard. (That's not new with 4e, by the way - it goes back at least as far as "Speaker in Dreams".)

Oh I agree. I usually write my own mods, but when I first started DM'ing I very much appreciated having published mods available for consumption. I do agree as well that WotC's mods are often anything but ideal. I think part of this is a sympton of trying to please as many people as possible while making it as easy to fit into an existing campaign as possible. However, I do think that they really just need a better variety of options, and perhaps, at least with their online offerings, could do a better job of categorizing them. Say "Mystery", "dungeoncrawl", "wilderness adventure", etc. That way a DM could quickly scan for the "type" of adventure they are looking for and could easily avoid reading mods that just won't work.

Actually, I think WotC have probably gone the wrong way with this. Instead of providing a single "big picture" book that tries to cover an entire setting (continent, or even world), I suspect more DMs would find more use in a similarly-sized supplement that provides a detailed overview of a fairly constrained area. The "Nentir Vale Gazeteer" sounded quite a lot like what I had in mind.

Ideally, such a product would include not just the details of the one region in question (including several detailed settlements, and a multitude of adventure hooks), but also some sort of "how to" guide, so that DMs can apply the principles involved to generate their own settings for future games quickly and effectively.

(Another example would be "Kingmaker on steroids" - take one of the Kingmaker adventures (for Pathfinder), but expand the area quite a bit and, crucially, provide a lot more detail about the various areas. Essentially, provide enough material for months of play - even if the product is then exhausted and not to be used again.)

Hmmmm, I hadn't considered it quite like that. You may be right in this regard. However, I think it would be better if it were a "generic" setting than an official setting. In other words, Nentir Vale would be great since it can be dropped into any campaign, but I would be hesitant to have them start doing a "Sword Coast" or "Eldeen Reaches" book. Not because those couldn't be useful, but because I don't need a "Sword Coast", "Dalelands", "Waterdeep", and "Icewind Dale". One or two of these products could very well serve an entire edition of the game in my opinion, particularly if they are coupled with advice on creating your own towns, regions, nations, etc. I still think the general campaign setting books are good for providing the feel of a world for the DM that does not wish to homebrew, but detailed sub-settings really do not need to be all that plentiful (in published terms) in my opinion.