Searing Light

[Pergentile]

You spoke of smelting. That's specific to the metal, not the raw element in a compound.

I spoke of a wizard with a smelting fetish. I can see the implication, but no.

Dozens of spells that would give a continuous electrical current? Sorry, but no. Pretty much everything that does lightning damage has an effective duration of "instantaneous".

Dozens of spells that do what they should not. Maybe my poor English is causing confusion. Do I structure my sentences strangely? Also I did not say we could both think of a spell that can provide a constant electrical current, but of a spell that could separate the two elements when it logically shouldn't.... I can't though ha ha. Lets just use Mithral and call it a win on your part on the Aluminum discussion.

Which it won't do. Try it. Go into a room with several light sources and try to focus them all into a single point of light using a lens. You'll get an inverse image of the room, complete with images of several distinct light sources.

Which it will do. Try it. Go outside on a sunny day and roast some ants. Why are you assuming that the light is from several sources? It is simply a giant magnifying glass and the sun. The flat mirror would only be used to redirect the suns light to the magnifying glass when it is to be aimed somewhere that does not have sunlight.

Latitude is easy. Every sailor can figure that by sighting the stars. Longitude, on the other hand, requires precise time measurements, accurate to the second, as measured against some base point. In the real world, that's a rather famous city in England. Timepieces accurate enough to measure this weren't available using medieval technology, and the need in fact inspired a hefty reward from the King of England for the clockmaker who could fashion such a piece. It took decades.

"Medieval technology" I thought we were using magic? Using magic to attain the correct information as to think of a system like latitude/longitude seems plausible to me.

I don't think saying that something could be targeted based on its location relative to several landmarks that could be seen from space is a stretch, or that its location relative to those landmarks could be figured out. Remember that this is theoretically being done by a high level wizard, who would have a LOT of time to dedicate to it. Even if latitude and longitude don't fit the bill, I still stand by my original statement that the castle you cannot see could still be targeted without seeing it based on knowledge and calculations.

The forces during the American Civil War had observation balloons available, and spyglasses were definitely around. Moreover, the map makers had had the opportunity to take all the time they needed, to walk the fields and roads, and to use surveyer's equipment to their heart's content. And they still got it wrong, over and over.

I don't see how this rebuts my point. I only see how it shows the flaws of what Americans did, and of the imperfect systems humans used and still use. I don't think that the fact that the Americans can't make a proper map is an accurate example of how targeting based on relevant location could not be done in D&D.

What do any of those have to do with seeing a castle from orbit?

Nothing, they have to do with making things easier to accurately aim. Did you not say that even high tech stuff nowadays needs to have its target painted? When there is absolutely no outside forces effecting ones calculations or few enough that they can be accounted for, one can reliably say that projectile A will hit target B, regardless of the distance between them.

My point was that our gut level interpretations of logic and physics are often just plain wrong. I could give examples, like the "hamster cannon", but I think you already know what I'm talking about. Trying to apply these very questionable tools to a setting where both logic and physics are distorted by game rules that defy both is a bad idea. A "non starter", meaning something that doesn't even survive a cursory examination.

Nicely put; what is gut level?

Text about Black Holes

^^ Where did you read that from an outside perspective, one could see something go into a black hole? I thought that light was also warped, and that nothing can be seen from within a certain radius of the black hole? (Black Hole may have been named for the fact that it does look like a hole of nothingness since it warps light, but the phenomenon itself is an infinitely small point) Do you mean one will reach the outside edge of the pocket of light-less space in a finite amount of time?

As for the "debating for the sake of debating" question: This whole thread has been about a "thought experiment", and yes, I've taken the role of spoiler. So yes, I've been debating more or less for the fun of it, as has pretty much everyone else involved.

I think of "debate for the sake of debating" as one trying to rebut every single point, even if one's points start to become less than polished. I agree that a thought experiment elicits a wide range of topics etc, but when ones points become hard to discern, or start to become based on assumption, and stop being effective in their rebuttal, I see them as not having a point in said thought discussion. I would like to point to post #20 as an example.


There are a lot of points that have been made. It is getting difficult to decide whether this is possible or not.

 

[Dandu]

Nothing, they have to do with making things easier to accurately aim. Did you not say that even high tech stuff nowadays needs to have its target painted? When there is absolutely no outside forces effecting ones calculations or few enough that they can be accounted for, one can reliably say that projectile A will hit target B, regardless of the distance between them.

It's how artillery works.

 

[kitcik]

I think of "debate for the sake of debating" as one trying to rebut every single point, even if one's points start to become less than polished.

...when ones points become hard to discern, or start to become based on assumption, and stop being effective in their rebuttal, I see them as not having a point in said thought discussion.

You rebutted nine separate points in this post alone, most of which had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. THAT is "debate for the sake of debating" and I find you guilty. YOU will test the ring gate!

 

[Greenfield]

I spoke of a wizard with a smelting fetish. I can see the implication, but no.

You mentioned the "Fetish for smelting", and then joined in on the debate over how Aluminum is smelted. Only after that point was lost did you decide that you were never really talking about that.

Dozens of spells that do what they should not. Maybe my poor English is causing confusion. Do I structure my sentences strangely? Also I did not say we could both think of a spell that can provide a constant electrical current, but of a spell that could separate the two elements when it logically shouldn't.... I can't though ha ha. Lets just use Mithral and call it a win on your part on the Aluminum discussion.

Try Wall of Fire, altered by Energy Substitution and made permanent, for the endless power source. Or Fabricate to smelt the metal, once you know how. It's that problem of "once you know how" that messes that one up.

Which it will do. Try it. Go outside on a sunny day and roast some ants. Why are you assuming that the light is from several sources? It is simply a giant magnifying glass and the sun. The flat mirror would only be used to redirect the suns light to the magnifying glass when it is to be aimed somewhere that does not have sunlight.

I'm presuming that it's from several separate sources because we've effectively discarded the idea of making a parabolic mirror on the scale needed, with a focal length in the tens of thousands of miles. We've been talking about that for some time. Now, if you want a single flat mirror 200 miles across, it can direct light at a single target, providing that the target is 200 miles across. It won't focus it. Now if you have a way to fabricate a lens 200 miles across, somehow bypassing the volume limits of the spell, that would be interesting. You'd still face the problem of grinding it so it has a focal length in the tens of thousands of miles, a goal that was discarded as impossible quite a while ago.

All you've done is relocate the problem, without actually solving it.

"Medieval technology" I thought we were using magic? Using magic to attain the correct information as to think of a system like latitude/longitude seems plausible to me.

So use magic to establish the exact time someplace else. Not hard at all. Use spherical trigonometry to calculate your position. Now you have some useful numbers.

What will you do with them? We'll pretend that you can somehow Spot a reference point to measure from using those numbers. At most they'd count as "Aid Another" and give you a +2 to a Spot check being made with a penalty in the tens of thousands. And they definitely won't help you when the attack roll comes.

I don't see how this rebuts my point. I only see how it shows the flaws of what Americans did, and of the imperfect systems humans used and still use. I don't think that the fact that the Americans can't make a proper map is an accurate example of how targeting based on relevant location could not be done in D&D.

It rebuts it in noting that mapmaking, even with years of effort, wasn't a precise science, and in many ways still isn't. (Try navigating around Washington DC some time. Depending on which map you use, Prince Street either crosses Kings Street or runs parallel to it. I'm not kidding.) Knowing *exactly* where something is isn't nearly as easy as some might think, particularly when you don't have aerial photography. (Flight exists in D&D, as it did during the Civil War via balloon. Photography during the war tops anything available in D&D, and it still wasn't enough to make a difference.)

Nothing, they have to do with making things easier to accurately aim. Did you not say that even high tech stuff nowadays needs to have its target painted? When there is absolutely no outside forces effecting ones calculations or few enough that they can be accounted for, one can reliably say that projectile A will hit target B, regardless of the distance between them.

Because inertia and temperature affect a beam of light?

Okay, temperature actually does to some extent, but since you have no way to stabilize the temperature over the target, from ground level up to the stratosphere, it hardly makes a difference.

But just for giggles, take a .22 caliber gun out someplace isolated. Strap it down to a concrete block. Fire it. The slugs will carry for almost a mile. If your theory is correct, two shots fired within a second of each other should strike almost in the same hole at that distance.

Now try it again at a closer target. Say 200 yards. Now again at 100 yards. Now at 100 feet. Now at 10 feet.

Tell me how close you have to get to pop them both in the same hole. I'm betting that it's somewhere in the 10 foot or less range. And that's with mass produced ammunition, powder counted to the exact grain, in a finely machined weapon.

Now, when it comes to aiming your huge mirror and lens, we get the fun of accounting for thermal expansion of your supporting frame, part of which will be in sunlight and part in shadow. And the temperature change will be an ongoing process as your platform orbits. The mirror will distort, an alteration invisible to the human eye, but more than enough to send your 200,000 mile shot off into never never land. The castle you're aiming for will be the safest place in the world, with regards to your weapon, since it will be the one place that can't be hit by accident.

Nicely put; what is gut level?

Quoting ideas as you think they should work, without actually doing the math. The Hamster Cannon example played with this, that someone had a basic idea of "Conservation of Momentum", and forgot that the world wasn't the stationary foundation of the universe.

Here's another example that people often get wrong.

If I try to drive from LA to San Francisco, it's about 400 miles. If I drive that in 8 hours, I average 50 miles an hour. If I want to drive it in 4 hours I need to average 100 miles an hour.

So if I want to split the difference between an 8 hour trip and a 4 hour one, and drive it in 6 hours, how fast do I have to drive?

Gut level response typically says 75 miles an hour, splitting the difference between 50 mph and 100 mph. And that answer is wrong. Do the math if you don't believe me.

That's what I mean by "gut level". The answer that feels right if you don't think about it too much.

Regarding black holes: "Infinitely small" is a misnomer. Immeasurably small would be a better way to say it. Space distorts, making such a measurement meaningless, or so the theory goes. And yes, the idea that an outside observer could "see" the impact is also a misstatement, a "gut level" answer, if you will. But the point is that the time dilation is specific to the frame of reference. The "outside observer" doesn't suffer the illusion of an infinite delay in falling. Presuming that they had some way of observing the moment of impact, it would happen in linear time.

I think of "debate for the sake of debating" as one trying to rebut every single point, even if one's points start to become less than polished.

Considering the length and detail of your post, I find that hilarious. You've added tangent after tangent to this discussion, and when I've tried to dismiss some as irrelevant, you've worked to drag them all right back in again.

I agree that a thought experiment elicits a wide range of topics etc, but when ones points become hard to discern, or start to become based on assumption, and stop being effective in their rebuttal, I see them as not having a point in said thought discussion.

Were you trying to describe your posting style, or is that just a happy coincidence?

There are a lot of points that have been made. It is getting difficult to decide whether this is possible or not.

Easily possible, if you're willing to ignore the rules of the game, while simultaneously ignoring the laws of physics. Only by selectively choosing which rules to use, and when, can this be done. If you try to follow either real world laws of physics, or game world rules as written, it can't be done, short of a barrel full of Wishes.

 

[Pergentile]

I will admit, I am obviously not following the thread as well as I want to think. Lets simplify things for my sake.

Parabolic, kept at a set distance from the earth, and made to focus light at a point equal to that of the distance away that the earth is, was discarded? Was the device itself determined to be structurally impossible, or was the curve of the parabolic decided to be impossible to determine?

Lets just contact a god and ask them what curve the parabolic should have, at X distance from the earth, where x is the distance needed to be able to orbit the earth while staying above a specific point (unless obtaining orbit that follows the rotation of the earth is impossible...).

Lets not aim it, lets just go Dr. Evil style on a country and just drag the "Disintegrate" all over said country. Lets draw our name. To hell with aiming at anything specific. Wouldn't the penalty to hit due to distance be irrelevant if the thing can only damage a set distance, and the target is always at said distance? Even if it is relevant, the device would cause considerable damage to anything vertically within several miles of the intended focus point wouldn't it? Meaning that you could drag it over a mountain or a valley and still get destruction out of it. It would be a matter of moving the thing horizontally relative to the earth. Any penalty in that regards would easily be offset by the fact that you are directing the thing straight at the center of the earth from your perspective on the device. What would be the modifier to hit the earth? I think it would be equal to any arguable penalty from distance, etc.

Since you (Greenfield) argued yourself that Aluminum is a prime choice to make said parabolic out of (a mirror in this case), is there no metal in D&D that would be appropriate? Adamantine, Mithral, some "indestructable and unalterable" material that can only be manipulated with magic? Would Diamond do the job?

Could we even just use a spell that redirects sunlight, and make it permanent, and cast it (365(24(60(10*1d4+1)))) times?

I really do want to see this thing be made possible. It is an entire campaign in a single idea.

As always, <3 you Greenfield!

 

[Dandu]

Re: presence of aluminum in DnD.

A suby is composed of CrAl2O3. An emerald's consists of Be3Al2(Si03)6. A sappire is Al2O3

Guess what Al stands for?

 

[Alexander123]

Re: presence of aluminum in DnD.

A suby is composed of CrAl2O3. An emerald's consists of Be3Al2(Si03)6. A sappire is Al2O3

Guess what Al stands for?

I would just like to say that to rule that aluminum doesn't exist in D&D is one of the stupidest rulings anyone could make.

It is completely arbitrary and is only designed to put an end to player creativity.

 

[kitcik]

I would just like to say that to rule that aluminum doesn't exist in D&D is one of the stupidest rulings anyone could make.

It is completely arbitrary and is only designed to put an end to player creativity.

Curses, "foiled" again!

 

[Greenfield]

I will admit, I am obviously not following the thread as well as I want to think. Lets simplify things for my sake.

Parabolic, kept at a set distance from the earth, and made to focus light at a point equal to that of the distance away that the earth is, was discarded? Was the device itself determined to be structurally impossible, or was the curve of the parabolic decided to be impossible to determine?

I questioned the skill check needed to create such a mirror, with a curvature so precise as to give it a focal point 231,000 miles away (presuming a lunar orbit). We couldn't build that now, with the most precise machines we have. Hell, we had to retro-fit the parabolic in the Hubble because of an optical flaw.

Dandu suggested a combination of skill, Aid Another and Moment of Prescience to give him a total bonus in the 60s. I questioned "Aid Another" from an Unseen Servant, as well as using Aid Another to help a Fabricate, since they can't actually do anything to Aid. We also determined that Moment of Prescience only applies to opposed skill checks, not just any skill check. I also questioned whether a check in the 70s or 80s (adding in the presumed dice roll) would be anywhere close to doing the job in any case.

In reality, making a mirror optically flat enough to just reflect accurately at that distance is just about as hard.

Lets just contact a god and ask them what curve the parabolic should have, at X distance from the earth, where x is the distance needed to be able to orbit the earth while staying above a specific point (unless obtaining orbit that follows the rotation of the earth is impossible...).

Let's pretend that a deity could and would give you that answer. I'm sure there's a patron deity for hair brained schemes out there, after all. We have gods of everything else.

Now that you have it, how will you put it into use? How will you make such a mirror, when the curvature would be imperceptible to the human eye, or any known instrument. Seriously, there's such a thing as "margin of error", and in this case that margin is less than a micron. There isn't a polishing compound fine enough to avoid leaving micro-scratches larger than the grinding tolerances would allow for.

The minor changes in shape from movement stress and temperature variance will add more irregularities to the mirror(s). Remember, a thousandth of a degree makes a huge difference over a course of over 200,000 miles.

Lets not aim it, lets just go Dr. Evil style on a country and just drag the "Disintegrate" all over said country. Lets draw our name. To hell with aiming at anything specific. Wouldn't the penalty to hit due to distance be irrelevant if the thing can only damage a set distance, and the target is always at said distance? Even if it is relevant, the device would cause considerable damage to anything vertically within several miles of the intended focus point wouldn't it? Meaning that you could drag it over a mountain or a valley and still get destruction out of it. It would be a matter of moving the thing horizontally relative to the earth. Any penalty in that regards would easily be offset by the fact that you are directing the thing straight at the center of the earth from your perspective on the device. What would be the modifier to hit the earth? I think it would be equal to any arguable penalty from distance, etc.

Here's where we get back to the difference between game rules and the laws of physics. The castle would be considered Colossal size, giving you a +8 to hit it. The County or Barony it was in would be considered as Colossal size as well, as would the nation, the continent, and in fact the planet itself. Colossal is as big as the scale gets in the game rules. You could invent a term for something bigger, but at that point you're back to ignoring the actual rules.

As for the precise focal length: You're right, who cares if you're off by a few miles. Less damage over more area, or more damage over less, it works out the same in the end. The question is more a matter of whether you have any focal point at all. Does your immense mirror (that can't actually be Fabricated at that size) actually bring all that light into focus on any point at all?

Since you (Greenfield) argued yourself that Aluminum is a prime choice to make said parabolic out of (a mirror in this case), is there no metal in D&D that would be appropriate? Adamantine, Mithral, some "indestructable and unalterable" material that can only be manipulated with magic? Would Diamond do the job?

First, I never said aluminum would do the job.

Second, neither Adamantine nor Mithral are indestructible or unalterable in D&D. Maybe you're thinking of Adamantium, from Marvel Comics?

And even there, there are powers that can break it.

In both universes, their "ultimate metal" can be bent, even if it does tend to spring back. How you would Craft an indestructible, unalterable metal is, of course, another problem, but we'll ignore it for the moment.

Would diamond work? It's actually the preferred material for high precision reflectors in the real world, but even carbon crystal, the hardest substance known, expands and contracts with temperature changes. Your huge reflector would still distort with heat, even if you had some way to grind it to that impossible precision. (Which you still don't.)

Could we even just use a spell that redirects sunlight, and make it permanent, and cast it (365(24(60(10*1d4+1)))) times?

You can invent any spell you like. You could even specify that that it will somehow stack with itself. We're getting back to that "ignore the rules of the game" issue, of course, but we'll ignore that as well.

You still can't hit your target at that range. And you'll need to roll that attack roll 365(24(60(10*1D4+1))) times, taking a standard action per attack, while your target is shifting away at a thousand miles an hour (surface velocity of a rotating earth-sized planet with a 24 hour day). By the time you've lined up your 5th reflector, the first one is off target. You'll be spending weeks setting up the attack on a target that's gone from sight in 12 hours.

I really do want to see this thing be made possible. It is an entire campaign in a single idea.

As always, <3 you Greenfield!

There are two ways to make it work.

1) Use a cargo ship full of Wishes.
2) Cheat.

(Note, the two solutions aren't mutually exclusive.)

Oh, there is anther way. Create an Artifact, the Wrath of Pelor. Its power is that it will send a beam of sunlight unerringly at any target in sight, doing damage based on the amount of sunlight striking it.

Now build your array of mirrors, all focused on a single point a few hundred yards away. You can Take 20 on the aim, trying again and again as you fine-tune it until you get it just right. Since these aren't actual attack rolls (there isn't one with this method), Take 20 is allowed.

All that's left is building the orbital platform to mount it on, and we've already addressed that issue. (Stone + Levitate + Greater Teleport + 12 Decanter's of Endless Water to use as maneuvering jets to build orbital velocity, add Wall of Stone again and again to create the platform itself.)

Epic enough?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Guess what Al stands for?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9xbikYWOAs&feature=youtube_gdata_player]YouTube - Paul Simon- You Can Call Me Al[/ame]