How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Hussar]

On the other side though: I don't think anyone is really claiming that an F1 is in anyway superhuman; they are claiming the F1 (and I think specifically the PC F1) is supperior from a narrative perspective - from the potential inherrant for greatness, which really is what PCs do aspire for. Then again there have been so many posts in this thread that maybe I simply missed that tangent.

Bingo, that's what I've been saying all the way along. Well, I do think that the F1 is actually measurably better than any normal human as defined by the system. It got bogged down in semantic games about the difference between superhuman and exceptional, but, yeah, that's the basic gist.

RC - I honestly don't know. Can a Normal Human (as defined by the 1e books) actually wear armor? Any armor? I know they gave them a single weapon, but, do they actually get 4 weapon proficiencies?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Bingo, that's what I've been saying all the way along.

Really? Those posts about how any PC is automatically superhuman simply by virtue of being a PC, made on your account, using your user name, and written with your writing style were posted by someone else?

You should let the moderators know!

To paraphrase Imaro in another thread (http://www.enworld.org/forum/5500804-post613.html): Wow, IMO this is a totally disingenuous comment. You were shown with examples and logic that you were in fact wrong in certain assumptions... but instead of admitting you were wrong and moving forward... you're playing the victim role... really?

RC - I honestly don't know.

Again, at least we are getting somewhere.

Can a Normal Human (as defined by the 1e books) actually wear armor? Any armor? I know they gave them a single weapon, but, do they actually get 4 weapon proficiencies?

Yes; in 1e a normal human can wear armour. Crack your 1e MM, which you referred to upthread, and you will see examples. Likewise, a normal human doesn't gain any weapon proficiencies; they are assumed proficient with whatever weapons the DM chooses to give them. Again, crack that 1e MM again, and you will see that, yes, normal humans (wonder of wonders) are capable of carrying weapons.

(You could also crack any 1e module that includes an urban component, such as N1 or T1, and you will see the same.)

You may not be aware of it, but it has been common throughout history for normal people to be given weapons training. Indeed, this training was often mandatory. That way, when you had to levy the locals to defend the land, you had someone capable of working in a militia. The US Constitution's right to bear arms and form a militia is a direct decedent of this practice, as is every posse in every Western movie you've ever seen.

Socrates may be known for his wit and wisdom, but he also served his mandatory stretch in the army, and was considered a good soldier. There are still countries today where some form of military service is mandatory. Robert Heinlein once made an argument (Starship Troopers) that military service should be mandatory to gain the rights of citizenship.

That a D&D turnip farmer (even one better known as the Socrates of the Fields) might have weapons training is nothing to be surprised at. Conversely, if you have not had any weapon training, you are an anomaly relative to the overall trend of human history.


RC

 

[pawsplay]

Again, the goalposts shift.

No one, at least not me, is saying you can't have Turnip Farmer as a background. What is being said is that once you have F1, you are, by virtue of having a PC class, measurably better than any other normal turnip farmer.

... In earlier editions, the Turnip Farmer isn't a F1. Sure, the F1 could, as part of his background, be a F1, but, somewhere between being a Turnip Farmer and being a Fighter 1, something had to happen (like having your parents brutally murdered and spending years on intensive training) that turned you from Turnip Farmer INTO F1.

Let's see if the Rules Cyclopedia agrees with you.

Normal Human
Monster Type: Human (Common).
"Normal human" is the generic term for a human who does not seek adventure. A normal human character does not have a character class, but might (optionally) have General Skills.

That looks good for the notion that most turnip farmers are Normal Humans, which everyone agrees with. However, it appears to conflict with your claim that a turnip farmer who adventures is not a Fighter, since Normal Men are not adventurers. So insofar as you have claimed something different than what other people have said, your position seems greatly weakened by this evidence. This seems to say an adventurer is NOT a Normal Human, even if they are a turnip farmer, because they seek adventure.

Noble: This is n general term for any member of a social class of rulers...
Traveling nobles encountered will normally be fighters, clad in fine plate mail armor and shield.

Uh, oh! The Rules Cyclopedia just claimed commonly encountered Nobles are members of a PC class!

Bnch noble fightn is always accompanied by a suire (2nd level fighter-servant).

...

...

Squires are second level fighters? Well, how do you like that?

Because, let's not forget, the second you slap on that PC level, you now have an Elite array, not a normal array. That right there makes you measurably better than any other turnip farmer.

RC just refuted this notion. In case this line of argument was still viable.

 

[pawsplay]

3.5e DMG, on the subject of Warriors:

You can also use the warrior flass for soldiers (although perhaps not for commanders or career soldiers), guards, local thugs, toughs, bullies, and even regular people who have learned to defend their homes with some ability.

Emphasis mine.

And on the subject of Fighters:

Fighter: These characters often serve as mercenaries or officers in the army. The sheriff in a small town might well be a fighter.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No one, at least not me, is saying you can't have Turnip Farmer as a background. What is being said is that once you have F1, you are, by virtue of having a PC class, measurably better than any other normal turnip farmer.

Actually, KM did, remember?

As for being measurably better, yes- by about 5%.

He just said that 17 is more than "Pretty Big", its near world record competitor.

No, he said "Pretty Big" started at Strength 11.

"Pretty Big" is not effectively modeled with a Str of 17. "Pretty Big" might be a Str of 11 instead of 10.

See? I called shannanegans because I know I'm stronger than that, and I can't touch what people call "really strong." I can't match any pro male athletes for whom strength is a requirement...and most at the collegiate levels in those sports would still laugh at me.

Danny I'm going to call you on that 14. I think you are closer to a 12 at most. You may be 250lbs but that does not mean you can get to much more out of your muscles than the average person of your weight.

At my peak, I did multiple benches of 300lbs. The last time I did leg presses (on a machine), I did 3 sets of 10 reps at 700lbs...because that's all that was in the machine's stack.

I set my peaks at age 22 and 193 lbs. I'm a 43 year old fat mofo lawyer now and still hit 90% of that. (Not as many reps, though, due to injuries like an ACL/MCL tear, etc.)

In earlier editions, the Turnip Farmer isn't a F1. Sure, the F1 could, as part of his background, be a F1, but, somewhere between being a Turnip Farmer and being a Fighter 1, something had to happen (like having your parents brutally murdered and spending years on intensive training) that turned you from Turnip Farmer INTO F1.

So he fought in the the annual Gnoll incursions his land, and once got called up to defend against a land-grab by a neighboring Barony...that doesn't mean he didn't return immediately to farming once the conflicts were over.

Just because one has a level of Fighter, doesn't mean your life's destiny drives you from the farm forever. It may not even drive you from your farm for more than a few weeks. You may be trained to fight because your life depends upon it, but you may choose not to elect to be a fighter as your livelihood.

Because, let's not forget, the second you slap on that PC level, you now have an Elite array, not a normal array.

Nope, that is NOT what the section of the 3.5 DMG I quoted said. It said that the NPCs on those charts had elite arrays, but that you could do them with average stats if you wanted.

All PCs and all of the NPCs described in this section are "elite," a cut above the average. Elite characters (whether they are PCs or not) have above average ability scores and automatically get maximum hit points from their first Hit Die. Average characters, on the other hand, have average abilities (rolled on 3d6) and don't get maximum hit points from their first Hit Die...Likewise, some fighters, wizards, and so on are average people rather than elites; they have fewer hit points and lower ability scores than the NPCs described here.

(Emphasis mine.)

There it is in B&W in the 3.5 DMG: "Likewise, some fighters, wizards, and so on are average people rather than elites; they have fewer hit points and lower ability scores than the NPCs described here."

Not Fantasy Heroes. Not Elites. "Average people." (And they even dared say it of wizards!)

 

[pawsplay]

Nope, that is NOT what the section of the 3.5 DMG I quoted said. It said that the NPCs on those charts had elite arrays, but that you could do them with average stats if you wanted.

Thanks for providing the flanking condition. I will now sneak attack!

Likewise, some fighters, wizards, and so on are average people rather than elites; they have fewer hit points and lower ability scores...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

CRIT!

(I was editing while you were posting...)

 

[Hussar]

Thanks for providing the flanking condition. I will now sneak attack!

To which I counter:

Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite.

Elite Array

The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. While the monster has one weakness compared to a typical member of its race, it is significantly better overall. The elite array is most appropriate for monsters who add levels in a player character class.

Nonelite Array

The nonelite array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. The nonelite array does not necessarily make a monster better than normal, but it does customize the monster as an individual with strengths and weaknesses compared to a typical member of its race. The nonelite array is most appropriate for monsters who add class levels in a NPC class.

Note, there is actually 3 levels here. There's average as defined by the rules and then there's non-elite and elite.

Which array does the 3.5 DMG say I should use? Normal, non-elite or elite? IDHMBIFOM.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Which array does the 3.5 DMG say I should use? Normal, non-elite or elite? IDHMBIFOM.

It leaves it to the DM.

 

[Hussar]

That looks good for the notion that most turnip farmers are Normal Humans, which everyone agrees with. However, it appears to conflict with your claim that a turnip farmer who adventures is not a Fighter, since Normal Men are not adventurers. So insofar as you have claimed something different than what other people have said, your position seems greatly weakened by this evidence. This seems to say an adventurer is NOT a Normal Human, even if they are a turnip farmer, because they seek adventure.

That's backwards though. The fighter isn't a turnip farmer, because he's a fighter and not a Normal Man. Once our putative Turnip Farmer turns to adventuring, he stops being a Normal Man and starts being a Fighter by virtue of going on adventures.

So, in other words, Fighters are not Normal Men in that system. They are different. They are, dare I say it, better than normal men, not because of their background or anything else, but because they stop being a Normal Man and start being a Fighter. Other fighters don't get their level worth of attacks on them for one.

There are systems out there where you are a turnip farmer who goes on adventures. Chivalry and Sorcery leaps to mind here. There is no difference between you and the turnip farmer down the road. But, in D&D, you are qualtitatively different from the Turnip Farmer down the road by the rules.