How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Neonchameleon]

The different rules have very different takes on this. If you run 1E or 2E you have those 0-level people which to me do not make much sense. 4E has reintroduced them via the mooks rules.

To me, mook combat rules make perfect sense. They are for people who aren't trained fighters and are going to break or fold. Wielding a weapon and so are dangerous, but have never been in a real fight in their lives. That surgeon over there is fast, precise, and knows exactly where to cut. But one punch and he's on the floor crying. He's a mook. So are those people with pitchforks and torches. All dangerous when together, but are going to run like buggery if they get hurt and this ceases to be fun. (0th level NPCs on the other hand make no sense at all to me). And her ladyship barely knows one end of a sword from the other and would just either run screaming or faint at the sight of blood. No combat ability at all. Doesn't stop her being incredibly sharp, able to talk her way round anyone, and having an encyclopaedic knowledge of the kingdom.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This was the arguement? I thought the argument was that fighters, at the start of their career were normal as in average, not exceptional, what you would expect to find, that sort of thing.

Are fighters mundane, as in non-magical? Sure. Totally agree with that.

Cool. So, then, fighters (or, at least, low-level fighters) are not superhuman? Glad to hear it. I guess that would make anyone arguing that they had to be, well, wrong in your eyes?

Because I would agree to that.


RC

 

[Jeff Wilder]

This was the arguement? I thought the argument was that fighters, at the start of their career were normal as in average, not exceptional, what you would expect to find, that sort of thing.

When I was involved, the people on the other side were arguing that fighters (e.g., Batman) were "superhuman," and "not a normal human." I, and several others, went out of our way to express that we knew that Batman was exceptional, extraordinary, and a superhero, but we disputed "superhuman."

As far as I'm aware, the people arguing that Batman -- and fighters, by extension -- was automatically "superhuman" simply because he's an exceptional human never conceded the point.

I personally think that the idea that any PC in D&D isn't exceptional is dumb, but it's not dumb because they can't have been "normal turnip farmers" (they can have been). It's dumb because it's exceptional that from that background they have the potential to shape the world.

And I don't see the "fighters are normal guys" people arguing against that idea.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

Compare a top-level Navy SEAL (an actual exceptional but not super-human, high-level fighter) versus a high-level fighter from any version of D&D.

SEAL gets hit by a club wielded by a giant . . . SPLAT
Fighter gets hit by a club wielded by a giant . . . "That all ya got?!"

SEAL gets caught in a red dragon's breath weapon . . . cooked.
Fighter gets caught in red dragon's breath weapon . . . "You singed my hair!"

etc., etc.

High level fighters in every version of D&D are super-human, just not super-human in the flashy, mass destruction way of wizards.

 

[fanboy2000]

Compare a top-level Navy SEAL (an actual exceptional but not super-human, high-level fighter) versus a high-level fighter from any version of D&D.

SEAL gets hit by a club wielded by a giant . . . SPLAT
Fighter gets hit by a club wielded by a giant . . . "That all ya got?!"

SEAL gets caught in a red dragon's breath weapon . . . cooked.
Fighter gets caught in red dragon's breath weapon . . . "You singed my hair!"

etc., etc.

High level fighters in every version of D&D are super-human, just not super-human in the flashy, mass destruction way of wizards.

To be fair, those are things that only a high level fighter are going to face. I think you're shortchanging the SEAL a bit. (Of course, I'm biased, being former a sailor in the U.S. Navy.)

Also, few people here or elsewhere are making the claim that high-level fighters aren't, well, better than what a normal human can do in real life. I think it's part of D&D's charm.

If you're going to have players play bother warriors and magic-users, then you need a way to balance them out. We've pretty much covered how that's handled in fiction. Either it's not, or the writer uses a variety of plot devices or limitations on the magic user's power to give them parity.

But in D&D, it's always been a point of contention. A lot of this has to do with person play style and experience. Also, a fighter needs a way to survive an encounter with a dragon in a game called Dungeons & Dragons. Otherwise, there's no point.

 

[KahnyaGnorc]

To be fair, those are things that only a high level fighter are going to face. I think you're shortchanging the SEAL a bit. (Of course, I'm biased, being former a sailor in the U.S. Navy.)

Also, few people here or elsewhere are making the claim that high-level fighters aren't, well, better than what a normal human can do in real life. I think it's part of D&D's charm.

If you're going to have players play bother warriors and magic-users, then you need a way to balance them out. We've pretty much covered how that's handled in fiction. Either it's not, or the writer uses a variety of plot devices or limitations on the magic user's power to give them parity.

But in D&D, it's always been a point of contention. A lot of this has to do with person play style and experience. Also, a fighter needs a way to survive an encounter with a dragon in a game called Dungeons & Dragons. Otherwise, there's no point.

The SEAL would more likely be missed by the giant or avoid the dragon (as they are more agile than the typical plate-wearing D&D fighter), but hit dead-on? That is a simple matter of physics, which the SEAL cannot violate, but the D&D fighter can. The human body cannot withstand as much force and pressure that a giant's club would bear. Similarly, the heat of a red dragon's breath weapon would cook human flesh.

In the vast majority of fantasy fiction with fighter-types as main characters, they violate the laws of physics in the amount of punishment they can take without dying at the very least. Often, they violate it with the offensive capabilities or their agility, as well. That makes them super-human, which is counter to the "Fighters are exceptional, but mundane" line. Even non-fantasy fiction with a fighter-like main character (like Die Hard) have them be super-human by defying the laws of physics in that regard.

 

[Hussar]

Cool. So, then, fighters (or, at least, low-level fighters) are not superhuman? Glad to hear it. I guess that would make anyone arguing that they had to be, well, wrong in your eyes?

Because I would agree to that.


RC

Well, if you insist that superhuman must be defined by being supernatural, then fine. If, otoh, you simply use the term to mean what it says, as in more than normal, better than normal, exceptional, then no.

To me, Batman is so far beyond a normal human that he is, for all intents and purposes, superhuman. Not in the, "I got bitten by a radioactive spider" sense, but in the, "I am just that much better than any normal human that I'm not even in the same zip code" sense.

But, whatever floats your boat. I honestly don't see a huge difference between exceptional and superhuman, other than maybe special effects (as in the high budget movie sense, not the game definition sense, just to be clear). Both are better than normal human.

Which is what I have been arguing all the way along.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, if you insist that superhuman must be defined by being supernatural, then fine.

Go look it up in the dictionary, and you'll find the primary definition in virtually every source uses words & phrases like "preternatural" or "beyond those of mankind." It isn't until you look at the later definitions accounting for colloquial watering down of the word that you see it as a mere superlative.

superhuman - definition of superhuman by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

"Exceptional," OTOH, is not nearly as strong a word. "Uncommon" and "Well above average" are typical of what you'll find. Not quite the same.

exceptional - definition of exceptional by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

 

[Thanael]

Compare a top-level Navy SEAL (an actual exceptional but not super-human, high-level fighter) versus a high-level fighter from any version of D&D.

SEAL gets hit by a club wielded by a giant . . . SPLAT
Fighter gets hit by a club wielded by a giant . . . "That all ya got?!"

SEAL gets caught in a red dragon's breath weapon . . . cooked.
Fighter gets caught in red dragon's breath weapon . . . "You singed my hair!"

etc., etc.

High level fighters in every version of D&D are super-human, just not super-human in the flashy, mass destruction way of wizards.

I think you define "get hit" differently for the real SEAL and the fantasy Fighter. Hitpoints != wound points

Also how about comparing the fantasy fighter to Bruce Willis in Die Hard ?

The main difference between realistic real world characters and fantasy characters is that the fantasy characters get to higher levels. The real world plays E6 or E5 or E4. ;-) (EDIT: and used a wound point/vitality system)

 

[Thanael]

The SEAL would more likely be missed by the giant or avoid the dragon (as they are more agile than the typical plate-wearing D&D fighter), but hit dead-on? That is a simple matter of physics, which the SEAL cannot violate, but the D&D fighter can. The human body cannot withstand as much force and pressure that a giant's club would bear. Similarly, the heat of a red dragon's breath weapon would cook human flesh.

In the vast majority of fantasy fiction with fighter-types as main characters, they violate the laws of physics in the amount of punishment they can take without dying at the very least. Often, they violate it with the offensive capabilities or their agility, as well. That makes them super-human, which is counter to the "Fighters are exceptional, but mundane" line. Even non-fantasy fiction with a fighter-like main character (like Die Hard) have them be super-human by defying the laws of physics in that regard.

Ah you're interpreting hitpoints wrong. A hit in D&D != a dead on hit. Hitpoints do not represent wound points.

What Hit Points Represent

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.

from D20srd.org

Hit points are a figure that can represent anything that prevents a character or creature from being seriously injured by an otherwise successful attack. HP doesn’t always measure physical wounds, but rather can represent stamina, morale, easily treated minor wounds, and even abstract things like luck or divine protection.

from Hit Points And You Jonathan Drain’s D20 Source: Dungeons & Dragons Blog


What you are talking about should be compared to a Fighter using the wound/vitality system.

Also instead of using real world examples I think comparing to Action Movies is called for.